Black Tuesday: The View From Islamabad Temporal (241)

Just because people are ready to die does not mean that their cause is just. Americans are now ready to die.

US policies in favor of Pakistan would be considered unjust by India and vice versa. No US policy would be just for the entire World. This is not the cause of terrorist bombing.

It is just that the leaders in many muslim countries cannot build a political base by selling promise of economic prosperity or anything else. A slogan against US and Israel with certain twist of Islam works much better.

Black Tuesday: The View From Islamabad A huge chasm of hatred and cruelty stands between an average Caucasian American and Timothy McVeigh. Yet another stands between an average American Muslim and the suicide terrorists who destroyed NYC towers and damaged Pentagon. However, it would be dishonest to claim that this is the complete story and an average American Muslim of foreign descent carries the same image of America as the bastion of freedom and justice as any other average American. The rhetoric of American Muslims condemning the terrorists does in some way sound hollow as they are followed with a ‘But’ American injustice around the world breeds such hatred.

Which nation, may I ask, does not attempt to further its own interests. How is it moral for KSA to invite USA on its soil to bomb and defeat Saddam and immoral for US to do the bombing. How is it moral and politically astute for Arafat to side with Saddam Hussain during the war and then expect US to feel the pain of Palestinians and rush to help Arafat. Why is it that it is unimaginable to find a group of children in Europe celebrating the American tragedy.

Muslims blame their misfortunes, misdeeds, incompetence, political blunders, and military defeats to the unjust policies of America. Ironically the same Muslim countries and their leaders continue to use America for their own interests and gains. The logic goes that it is impossible to survive without America, which has so many resources and controls so much of the World. When such powers have been bestowed to other Nations in other times they have been much more ruthless in exerting their power. I remember that during Iran/Iraq war when a truce was being proposed, Khumaini demanded ‘tawan’ from Iraq – good thing that he did not demand to make all Iraqi women ‘kaneez’ for Iranian soldiers. Imagine if Iran had became a super power under Khumeni what the world would be like. If this defense sounds crude then reconsider the phrase ‘America had it coming’.

Fairness is a relative term. How is going to war for oil less moral then destroying Afghanistan to ensure political and economic advantage? The unfairness of Muslim countries is limited only by the resources that they have. But the bastion of superior culture and beacon of justice and morality that they are they consider America ‘evil empire’. This is what we feed our children that America seeks nothing but evil for Muslims around the World.

People are advising caution and a reconsideration of its policies around the World. Imagine a terrorists bombing in Karachi by India and a Hindu citizen of Pakistan advising against retaliation and for caution and reconsideration of its policies in Kashmir and Afghanistan – How would you feel? That’s how I feel. And I am a Muslim from Pakistan.

People are agreeing with Pervez Hoodboy but they did not notice his calls for changes required by Muslims – give the freedoms, tolerance to your own people and build a just society in your countries then your protests will carry some moral weight.

Yes there is a lot that America can do better but Muslim countries and their leaders have to stop demonizing America for their own political gains. And American Muslims have to demonstrate that American blood runs in their veins and their loyalties are to America first.

Had to get it out!

A State of Confusion Re: Ajnabi # 61

I appologize for the disrespectful tone of my reply # 59. I think Ibne Sina has much more patience and knowledge and has answered well to your post.

What do you think should happen in the perfect world where islamic intellectulism has been revived and a muslim claims to believe in Quran partially? Ur thinks it is upto those muslim. Would you allow such a person to preach such ideas to other muslims?

A State of Confusion Re: Ajnabi # 49

Based on your reply

- Ibne Sina is Wajib-ul-Qatl

- Anybody who preaches such tolerance or questions the anachronistic elements of Islam is Wajib-ul-Qatl

- You like the idea of peace but the originality in Islam requires that we kill all who do not believe in it the way some enlightened one decrees

- Women`s place in society has been sealed 1400 years ago based on the Arab traditions of that time

- We must have the strength and conviction (Sunni Muslim way of life - whatever that means) and all those who don`t follow must be fed to the `three lions` to demonstrate such strength, lest we are forgotten like Buddhists

- Only reason the Muslim scientists accomplished what they did was because they had understood and practiced Islam the right way

- It is not that Osama cannot build a nuclear bomb but it is because he is a Muslim and Islam`s essence is against weapons

We Muslims first think that going to the moon is against Islam. Once we realize that it has occurred we rush to Quran to see if we can find some Ayat to justify it. Then we announce that Islam allows conquering of earth and skies and act as if we are the ones who have conquered the universe.

To believe that it is only the technological development that the Muslims lack is to deny the evolution of societies. Sophisticated legal, justice, government and political systems liberate us from the strict social code that served earlier societies.

I think Ibne Sina has articulated the predicament of Muslims and also presented a solution - Do not impose your `interpretation` of Islam on everyone. The devil is in the `interpretation`.

Love in the Time of Kargil If by sending prophets and scriptures, god intended to confuse people, he (or is it she? has done it masterfully. If not, he/she has failed miserably.

Of Boylove and Boylovers I grew up in the poor neighborhoods of Karachi. And I have seen non-manipulative boylove relationships. I can say non-manipulative because I grew up with them - I knew them. Mostly boys with other boys. At the time I just thought that it was wrong and they were committing a Gunah. Having to think about it myself is more difficult. I wish for divine guidance. Not the kind I see in the responses though.

To think of boylove does turn my stomach but so does the thought of my parents doing it. Should that stop us from thinking.

Of Boylove and Boylovers Re: Chowk Staff

I don`t know why did the chowk staff felt the need to defend posting of this article. Are we afraid to think?

A few months ago I read translation of an article from a bigot mullah which was nothing more than a pack of lies and I did not see such groveling defense from chowk staff.

Taqleed ki ravish say to behtar hai khud kushi

Raasta bhi daikh Khizr ka souda bhi choor day

Despite your response I do commend you for publishing the article.

Of Boylove and Boylovers When I read your article I feel you are right. I have not seen much in the responses that present strong arguments against such practice. You have very carefully responded to all the objections one might have to such forbidden love. I must say that you did reach and touch me.

These same people who passionately opposed `honor killings` are actually supporting such treatment of people like you. They want to kill you and shut you up to keep the society clean (their definition of clean). As one of the Pakistani senators said on honor killings `when there is a question of honor, there is no room for discussion`. I think for most of us the matter of such behavior is like what the matter of honor is to those who support and do `honor killing`.

To those who say that what happens when a boy becomes a man and is not physically attractive. I should ask what happens when the spouse gets old and ugly or loses breasts to cancer or becomes impotent?

Despite agreeing with you when I look at my son, who would be 12 years old some day, I feel it is wrong. I think my reasons, as digit explained, are also rooted in centuries old dogma.

I think societies are built on dogma. Why should we not sleep with our mothers and daughters? Why should we be monogamous? (As for those who would present medical reasons, I submit that life is not about being subservient to nature, it is about conquering it. We do defy nature everyday). Such dogma has become building block of my behavior. We restrain from having sex outside of a marriage, even though it may be pleasurable and non-harmful for the partners.

I would like your opinion on such issues. And how are they different from the one that you presented?

The Smart and the Ordinary All people who leave their countries and adopt others are not disloyal - one should not pass moral judgement on them. The path of life for them is not downhill either. I discover new worlds, new cultures, traditions and new Love. Can I not love more than one country? Can I not make new friends?

Kamala Das once said in one of her articles where she talked about cruel religious rituals `My God has matured along with me`. I would say `my concept of loyalty to a country` has matured along with me. Those who stay back home should not label us as money chasing disloyal beasts. The candle of love is burning in the hearts of many of us.

As I stated in my earlier post my reason for coming to this country was to get an education and earn a better life for my family and myself. I did not want to be poor. I did not want my family to be poor. I had a better chance to achieve financial and worldly success here than in my own country. Along the way I discovered a new love, America.

In seeking my worldly success I was meeting expectations of my family and friends. You do want to provide a better living for your loved ones. And it goes without saying that you want a good life for yourself too. Although the definition of a good life would change as we meet our goals in life. We would want to do things other than making more money; help other people; help our extraordinary brothers build a better country.

Yes, I did not love my country as much as Arsalan`s brother, he is extraordinary. But imagine a situation where he is one who chose not to leave the comfort of his home to struggle abroad so that he could afford a good education for his children and medical care for his parents who expect it from him. Is he betraying his family? The family who raised him by sacrificing money, time, freedom, and all the good things that they could have had they not chosen to raise him. He is not doing the best that he could do to provide for them the way they expect, the way the society expects. He would be labeled coward and crazy and will not have many friends. He would not be a hero.

Our parents do not have retirement plans. Good or bad they do expect their children to take care of them. It is brave for their sons/daughters to try to meet their expectation. And it is our right to pursue worldly success that buys freedom from the mundane survival and allows us the luxury of time to think about things like loyalty and love.

chowk@two Thank you for offering me a place on the net I can call home.

Happy Birthday

The Smart and the Ordinary Very touching indeed!

I salute your brother, the Ordinary. He is an exception - an Extra Ordinary. He is lucky to have the love that fills his heart despite what happens around him. Most people, given an opportunity, would choose not to be left behind.

However, I would like to add that most people, as Bina has pointed out, are a mix of ordinary and smart. Bina, I think, is a mix of two ordinaries and a smart. Not all those who leave Pakistan check their loyalty at the airport. And this is why the Ordinaries should not spurn our interest in the welfare of the country.

Here is something I wrote about my experiences in the United States:

Note: I have changed some names.

A journey from an Alien to a Citizen

Saleem sahab, an OU graduate and a proud IMAGINE-X scholar (working at IMAGINE-X was a scholarly achievement - lot of work, little pay and great experience) has recently received his green card. He will qualify for citizenship in early 1999. Like many of us who will soon qualify for citizenship he is also facing the decision - should he become a US citizen? And give up the Pakistani passport. I will soon qualify for citizenship myself and am thinking about applying for it. Although it seems like a natural next step in our so predictable lives to now become a US citizen, the thought of making such a final leap and to give up Pakistani citizenship does make me think about my relationship to these two countries.

For the first few years here (in the US) I was an ``Alien`` just as so many immigration status titles suggest. I was a foreigner in an unfamiliar land who came here to accomplish a mission - get a degree, earn a lot of money and go back home to live with the family and friends. Like many others I did get the degree, and money (it will never be enough) but returning home remains a dream.

During those early years I did not have much of a life here - just some middle class Pakistani friends who I shared with the dream of graduation and economic success. They were also my partners who shared the school, classes, assignments, grocery, dinners, apartment, and rooms. For most of us these were times of desperate survival. Our lives revolved around attending classes, cooking, cleaning, working odd jobs and studying for assignments and tests. A well-cooked meal was a joy we all cherished and a luxury we could not afford every day. We hardly had time to fix a quick and edible meal. An out of state trip during a spring break was all the EID we had here.

We switched cooking/cleaning and job schedules with our friends when someone had to study for a test, helped each other with assignments and tests, shared our books, bikes, and also the School ID cards (for the privilege of using computer lab when we were not enrolled in it or for riding on campus bus - our only mode of transport). Very few of us had cars during those days. The ones, who did have cars, had the responsibility of driving us to the store for groceries every week and teaching some of us to drive when we were ready to buy a car.

As we all graduated and started looking for jobs we again relied on each other for assistance. We would help each other with preparing resume, recommending jobs, providing moral support and guiding with the immigration processes. Most of us were still single at that time and some of us had jobs and others working odd jobs and looking for work. We had more time at our hands than we did during our school years. We spent this time mostly gabbing about green card, job, prospective wife, family, culture and religion. The philosophical discussions on education level, beauty, class, and complexion of prospective wives continued for several weeks at a time - next to green card this was the most fun conversation during that time.

All this time Pakistan was never far away. We were aware of our obligations back home and frequently sent money, made phone calls regularly and often cried thinking about the family back home. This was the time when I thought I was in Pardais. Although I lived in America, home for me was still Pakistan. All this time I thought that I was struggling here, away from home, where life was waiting for me.

All of us have now succeeded in our endeavors to achieve economic independence and stability. Although we don`t have as many friends and relatives as we had in Pakistan we are comfortable in the social settings that we have here. I have grown to admire the racial tolerance in America. I am more comfortable here than I would have been in any other state Muslim or Non-Muslim. I recognize that some of this acceptance of diversity and racial tolerance in America does come from the economic prosperity that this nation has been blessed with but its unique history does give the natives a unique perspective on racial diversity. And I as a Muslim from Pakistan I am not alone in the ever-growing number of immigrants here.

Over the last many years I have come to love this country. I have just as many good memories of America as I have of Pakistan. My first teaching assistantship, my first car, my first job here, and the birth of my son, Adeel. As long as I live here I will miss Pakistan. I will miss my family and friends, and all the growing up experiences, successes and the failures, the disappointments and the triumphs. The sound of a milli naghma and Pakistani national anthem will make me nostalgic and bring back the memories of Pakistan that was my only home once. But now if I return to Pakistan I will miss all the things that I have here. And although financial success is a big part of why so many of us want to live here, the ideals of freedom and liberty that are cherished here is what makes living here so rewarding. I have a new country and a new home now. My son, who is two years old, now recognizes the McDonald, the Bank of America, ATT and all the big and famous corporate logos and symbols. He yells out Bank of America or ATT whenever he looks at these symbols. He learns new things from his favorite TV shows. And although we try to speak Urdu with him he learns English from TV and his friends. His growing up experiences are all American - Our experiences as parents are all American. We enjoy the benefits of living in a prosperous civilized country that constitutionally strives for racial tolerance and are thankful for it.



A letter evoking the memories of Pakistan, memories of my childhood and family still makes me misty-eyed but I have put my nostalgia in perspective. I cherish those memories and they will always remain very much part of me. Today, however, I live here - in America and looking forward to becoming an American.

Evaporation Drops the Temperature sorry for the repeat in my reply #20

Evaporation Drops the Temperature Re: Lakhania # 18

I came here eleven years ago. For the first few years I felt much the same way that you do now. Although I am not as homesick as I used to be, I have not forgotten that home either. And I have a new home now. Success is not just material gain, it is the feeling of achievement and fulfillment. Don’t let the unnecessary guilt get in the way of your achieving your goals. If I had to do it over I will do it the same way.

Boond ko gohar bana deta hay zandane sadaff

Qaid-e-Tanhaai MaiN Ham nay Iss Liyae Katay Barass

Evaporation Drops the Temperature Re: Jay

I think corruption has an effect of undermining the economic system itself. When loans are approved without merit and the borrowers do not use it for the purposes it was meant for and the industries fail, losses mount it does have negative effect. When corruption is as institutionalized as it is in Pakistan it effects the legal and justice system. Public loses confidence in the system and govt. Long term investment dwindles. Strategic investment initiatives are passed over for ones that are more profitable for the corrupt decision-makers. That is the cost of corruption in Pakistan and other third world countries.

The cost of corruption in economic system is bad decision, which in the least leads to loss of efficiency and in the most loss of investment and failure of pubic policy. In the absence of public scrutiny (evidence of corruption of public office holders) the bank manager will pick the candidate who would provide the optimal benefit to him/her. This may not be from the two comparable competitors.



The cost of corruption in legal and justice system is citizen and human rights abuse and confidence lost in the system.

Ultimately it may lead to complete break down of the entire society.

This is when people wish for ‘GOD’ to save them because everybody else has failed them.

Evaporation Drops the Temperature Re: Jay

I think corruption has an effect of undermining the economic system itself. When loans are approved without merit and the borrowers do not use it for the purposes it was meant for and the industries fail, losses mount, it does have negative effect. When corruption is as institutionalized as it is in Pakistan it effects the legal and justice system. Public loses confidence in the system and govt. Long term investment dwindles. Strategic investment initiatives are passed over for ones that are more profitable for the corrupt decision-makers. That is the cost of corruption in Pakistan and other third world countries.

After the defeat Let me join you in denouncing `the enshrining of exclusiveness` in the constitution and psyche of the Pakistani people who voted a woman (albeit foolishly) into power against the Talibani principles

Let me also denounce `enshrining of exclusiveness` in one of the leading political parties of India

Let me denounce `enshrining inhuman violence` in Indian policy towards even the deadliest of the terrorists

Let me denounce the Indian position of not seeking an international mediation on issue of Kashmir. In its absence India is only as right as it claims and so is Pakistan.

Let me denounce all terrorism by anyone against innocent people

Let me denounce the hopes of death and destruction of any nation

Let me denounce keeping scores of muslim/hindu/indian/chinees victories and defeats in wars

Let me hope that Pakistan would be a prosperous secular state of muslim majority that would be the Antithesis of Taliban regime. This I think was in the minds of founders of pakistan who perceived an economic disadvantage for the muslim population in the new political order.

Let me hope that India will be an economic super power and a model of democracy and cultural and religious tolerance as it successfully defeats the various muslim, hindu and nationalist mullahs.