Moving Beyond Talk: A Roadmap for Quality Education I am waiting for Hazrat Allama Maulana Mufti Echoboom sahib Torontvi to weigh in on this. :))

Know Your Enemy Shandana:

Sameer has already made these points, but they need to be repeated.

Yours is an interesting perspective from a ``defencewaali`` if you will, taking the time to introspect. What you have produced here can be valuable, if it is a critique of the segment of our society that we -- from the other side of the clifton bridge -- call ``burger``. But your description is no more than a naiive caricature when you project it onto ``secularists`` en masse. And it is probably rooted in your own detachment from those who are not in your ``circle``.

You have a comrade-in-arms in our Echoboom miaN here, who has been railing against angrezi and angrezi-educated people forever. He is fighting an imagined archetype of an insular and snooty secularist, viscerally disdainful of anything non-Western. He is really fighting a class war in the guise of religion, and your critique of ``secularists`` is a shot fired in this same war. Call it a class war, a war between have`s and have nots. But this is not about secularism vs religion, or secularists vs religious fundamentalists.

The Nuclear Noose Around Pakistan’s Neck YLH:

Pervez Hoodbhoy has written enough about this in Pakistani papers as well; whatever the papers are willing to publish. Many times the Pakistani papers refuse to publish this sort of highly controversial material. I know of several instances where papers refused to publish his articles and he had to resort to either foreign journals, or email lists to send out to his friends. That`s one.

Second, he has published about Pakistan-India nuclear arms race in Pakistani papers as well. You have probably read all that.

If this article came from someone who was sitting in an ivory tower in the West and taking pot shots at Pakistan, I`d probably agree with you. Prof. Hoodbhoy, does not just live in Pakistan, but over the last 30 years or so has done enough for the country that you or I will not be able to do in five life times.

I know Hoodbhoy well enough to know that he would not take kindly to being called an Edward Said, and would dismiss anyone who does so as an idiot and a sycophant. The man is just trying to be himself. (The rhetorical flourish in the beginning of your post was more about name-dropping, than anything else.)

It is one thing if you disagree with him, and tell us why you do. But after acknowledging that your views are identical to his, you are taking shots at him because you want to look like the custodian of Pakistan -- whatever the hell that means in your own mind.

It is customary for people who wallow in mediocrity, to elevate their own status -- usually in their own minds -- by taking pot shots at people way out of their league, pretending that they are equals. Yaar I hope you don`t take it as an insult. I roughly know how much water you stand in in terms of accomplishment, talent, or contribution to society. You have a long way to go, before -- if ever -- it becomes you to take such shots.

I have the honor of knowing Hoodbhoy personally and am very proud of that. And you can call it whatever, but I do get incensed at lesser beings, who, without knowing the man, or his work, drag his name through mud.

Bravo! Similarly there is no reason you should attribute Jamaatyaa or Jahaadi behaviour to one who considers whatever has been deemed as sin as evil for society. It is just a muslims version of `` say no to to drugs``

I do not. But I do attribute jamaati-pan and jihadi-pun to someone who speaks out against such things in the manner that you do. I also attribute jahaalat to anyone who divides the world neatly into desi, gora, kaala and brown essences, and starts going crazy at anyone who does not conform with the matching construct he has associated with this essentialist worldview.

As regards me stopping the ``rant``, I did not even begin one. Go look up the meaning of ``rant`` and then look at your posts. Who is the one ranting?

Bravo! Yaar I read your post, and it was just one long angry tirade against goras. You`ve said little else. My experience is, that these angry rants are authored by jamaatis who know English. Their fellow jamaatis get mighty impressed by phrases like ``bacteria`s diarrhoea`` vaghairah vaghairah, and you feel like the kaana raaja. (Vaisay tu dahi khaata hai? Woh bhi bacteria ki paychish hi hoti hai ) Khair, I actually have a day job, plus I like doing chhaanray baazi on unplugged more than I like banging my head against walls here. But if I have time and inclination, and Samina is naat giving me any lift aan unplugged, I will come back tonight to tear your post apart.

Bravo! The key difference is that hijab enforcement is discriminatory - it is a rule only for women. A nudity ban applies to all, indicriminately and equally.

No. If you had thought through this, you`d have seen the speciousness of this argument. Even here in the US, there are discrepant definitions of ``nudity`` or ``indecent exposure`` for the two genders. Women get arrested if they walk topless and men do that freely.

Men and women have different anatomies, and the cultural idea of sartorial propriety is bound to vary for the two genders. As long as you are going to legislate such things, the discrimination will stay. The fact that hijab enforcement looks so outrageous to you, and a ban on women walking topless does not, is because you are thinking from your own mixture of individual and cultural perspectives. If you manage to shed this cultural baggage, then hijab enforcement will appear no different from any other ``indecent exposure`` law.

Bravo! Ballu:

I did not write those lines as a piece of enraged rhetoric. And an angry tirade against the mullahs -- delivered in a gathering of the already converted, i.e. chowk -- is not the kind of response I wished. We -- myself included -- do enough of that already. I asked a serious question: why do the fanatically religious elements in our society -- in almost every society actually -- choose victimless crimes as targets of their crusades?

I have my theory about that, which I will share later tonight if I have time.

Bravo! `` I dont do it myself and I dont thinkthat any body else should be allowed the poriviledge in Pakistan. Its an anti-islamic activity in an Islamic state, something that in principle, shouldnt be happening ``

How is drinking an anti-Islamic activity? Does drinking destroy Islam? What about other anti-Islamic activities? Let`s see ... men playing hockey in shorts, women going around without hijab, men and women going to the same school. Someone else will come and include masturbation, oral sex in the list; still another will include the use of birth control devices like a condom. Where do you draw the line? Do you think all these things should be outlawed, and people arrested for doing them?

Yaar no one is asking you to SUPPORT drinking. You can oppose drinking as much as you want; more power to you. But even if you condemn their choice to drink, you should support their right to make that choice on their own. Otherwise you cannot expect others to uphold your right to make similar choices, like wearing a Hijab in France.

Right now you`re eager to proscribe the right -- yes, right and not priviledge -- to drink even in his own home. Very soon someone else will be ready to usurp your rights to do things that you consider ``Islamic``.

On a more general note...

Drinking is not the only sin in Islam. There are many other sins that go on without anyone raving and ranting about them. Let`s take bribery. You`ll see an occasional perfunctory condemnation, but there is a general sense of resigned acceptance of bribery in our society. And I will argue that bribery is a much worse crime than drinking is; both on secular and religious grounds. The angry vigilantism of Jamaati gangs is targeted at hotels and clubs, at artists, actors, models, or people who choose to take a drink, or people who fall in love. Yet it spares those who give bribes, take bribes, embezzle, or commit fraud. Why is the worst wrath of these people reserved for ``crimes`` that are victimless ?

Bravo! Cheesoo:

Phattoo is a dirty word (the ``phaTna`` refers to the tearing apart of a certain opening in the back) and comes as a surprise from the lips of a namaazi, parhezgaar, paaband-e-saum-o-salaat woman like yourself. There is no use calling names like that to Ali Haider or anyone else. Please feel free to post the nazim`s view. I would like to read it, and then we will discuss this whole thing. okay?


There are several very separate issues at work here:

First is the ban on alcohol. I am against a ban on alcohol, but I also understand that such a ban is not something peculiarly evil in this world; just like I don`t think hijab enforcement is uniquely wrong. A ban on alcohol is not any different from a ban on marijuana in the US. Yet, there is an army of ``secularists`` out there who point fingers at Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for restricting the freedom of having a drink, yet don`t have half the rage against an American government that jails you for having a joint.

I will pose the same question about Hijab. It will be good if we, the self-proclaimed standard bearers of freedom question ourselves once in a while. Why is enforcing a hijab a bad thing? How is it any different from enforcing a ban on nudity? In my mind, there is little difference between the two. In both cases, the government is enforcing a cultural norm, that is informed by religion. Yet Saudi Arabia gets regular rounds of condemnation in our ``secular`` circles ever so often, and the nudity ban is not even registered.

My stand on both issues is clear. I say, that any norm, or law that needs the crutch of religion to stand on its feet, does not need to be there altogether.

The second issue:

Is the government justified in barging in on an apartment based on a neighbor`s complaint? I see this turning into a situation like the blasphemy law, where vendettas will be settled through accusations of ``bad-qumaashi`` and ``fahhaashi`` inside people`s homes. It`s quite literally a Patriot Act like situation, where the Patriotism Police -- the local jamaati -- can decide if you are patriotic or not, lodge a complaint and get the police into your house: without a warrant. It should trouble everyone regardless of their religious persuasion.

Some people would remember the Lawrence vs Texas case that the Supreme Court decided last year, in which the police intruded upon a homosexual couple`s home and arrested them under sodomy laws. Thankfully, the judiciary is still defending liberty, despite George Bush`s tirades and threats of constitutional amendments. The US Supreme Court, in an historical decision that is worth reading in its entirity, threw the government`s case out.

Finally:
People are being too hard on Ali Haider. Unlike us drawing room secularists and net jihadis, the man has to live in the real world, and cannot afford to be as brave as we pretend to be. His is a predictable, understandable response. Cut him some slack, even if his music is terrible.

What Cats Dream Yaar Godot,

Don`t be a munh-basoora please. Let`s keep your personal tiffs out of tihs.

This was a cutoo si poem, that even a jaahil non-front-pager like me liked and appreciated. Shandana if you write more of these please keep posting. I have a few friends who`d love reading and/or listening to this .

Another Attempt on Musharraf Dost Mittar Sahib:

Pakistan has had its own class warfare that was secular in nature. The villagers in Pakistan too were enamored by secular cries of emancipation from the Left. The Bacha Khans and the GM Syeds were very popular for a very long time. And even the establishment backed feudals (Bhutto, etc.) had to use the ``progressive`` rhetoric of the secular left, in order to appeal to the ``lower classes``.

The vote bank for the religious parties (Jamaat e Islami, and JUP in particular) was almost completely restricted to the urban middle class. I remember that in Karachi in the `85 elections (in which I was politically active) 11 out of the 13 National Assembly Seats were won by mullahs. Only Lyari and Orangi Town -- the two poorest areas -- returned candidates who were not bearded maulvis. The rest was one mullah or another. The mullahs returned the highest vote counts from the middle class areas of FB Area, Nazimabad, Gulshan e Iqbal, and the relatively less affluent New Karachi and Liaqatabad (Laalookhait) . These areas were also the most pro-Zia areas in Karachi. The history of previous elections is similar. In 1977 Liari returned a PPP candidate, while FB Area, Nazimabad, Liaqatabad returned opposition candidates who were maulvis. Maulvis fared even worse in rural Pakistan, except for some areas in Baluchistan and NWFP. Jhang -- which is now the hotbed of sectarian warfare and religious militancy -- never ever voted a mullah in before the 19990s. So to say that religious fundamentalism was festering among the poor population for years is in my opinion incorrect. The recent phenomenon of the rise of strident, militaristic fundamentalism in rural areas and poor populations is a recent phenomenon in Pakistan.

Second: Reactionaries, whether they be BJP or JI or JUI, Muslim League, or Congress people, are reacting to something; usually a class divide, or a sense of deprivation and disenfranchisement. They react against whatever they see as the hallmark of those who are doing the depriving. Why did Gandhi have to wear a dhoti? And why did his dhoti have so much appeal? Because it was THE OPPOSITE of the linen suits and the silk ties that represented the British colonizers and their brown sahib lackeys. In Pakistan, the poor saw the socialist rhetoric of Bhutto and Khan Abdul Wali Khan as a counterweight to what they saw as capitalistic oppression by the poor. And now the same people see the rhetoric of Azam Tariq as a battle cry against the ``modern`` yuppies frequenting pizza hut and KFC.

I had the fortune of growing up with people who turned into fundoos. I`ve known them since they were in diapers. If you actually go and talk to a few of them, you get a better idea about the reasons they choose this path. The first and foremost is a sense of purpose that they lack in life; no education, or no job, or no future; they see their lives going nowhere. The mullah in the mosque shows them a way where they see themselves serving a higher purpose. So they join. Second, you get a sense that they are railing against some external other, and more importantly, an internal Other -- the KFC munching yuppies -- who is colluding with the external twin to extinguish them. The symbols that they choose to fight this class war are not necessarily determined by the textbooks they read. (You will see no one quoting their fifth grade textbook.) This same class that has now turned ``Jihadi``, was very willing to listen to the calls of ``surkh khoon`` and ``roti kapRa aur makaan`` 30 years ago. So why have they found this new appeal in Jihad? I don`t know the perfect answer. I can guess. Part of it is a cultivation of this jihadi mentality by internal and external manipulators during the Afghan war. Part of it has to do with the fact that communism dissappeared, and stopped being an inspiring and motivating force for justice and equality. Islam filled that vacuum. Part of it probably also due to the fact that many of the ``roti kapra aur makaan`` ppl got into power and turned out to be just as bad as their predecessors. And yes, partly -- and only partly -- also because of the national dialoque that is overly dominated by religiion.

But to say that fundamentalism has been cultivated in Pakistan for 50 years through textbooks, is to really exaggerate the influence of textbooks in a country where only 10% of the population is literate.

Shikwa: My Eid wish... allah miaN:

aap chaahay jis qism ka khizaab laga leiN daaRhi meiN..qasam teray rasool ki mujhay us say koi sar o kaar nahiN hai...bhalay say mehndi lagaaeN ya laareal hair dye, naaryal ka tael...jo marzi bhai...buss ek baat hai...don`t turn out to be an idiot like miraj....ye baRa KLPD ho jaaey ga...


haan aur ek baat aur..jidhar raka ko bhejay, udhar hi mujhay bhi bhej day..bhalay say us kay kaarnar plaaT kay baraabar juggi meiN Daal day I dont` care :|

Waiting For Fatwa yaar tempoo

The NY Times profile is quite old, at least two months old. I am not sure one can post links from 2 month old NY Times issues. Sorry man

I read Tarek`s rejoinder. Manji`s rendition of Pre 1949 Middle East history is at the same level as that of a fifth grader in a Tel Aviv elementary school, keh ji Amin al Husseini visited Hitler therefore Palestinians are anti-Semites, and by extension, Muslims are that as well. History was of course much more complex than that.

Yaar if this is the calibre of this book then there are better ways for me to spend money than buy this load of crap. It is sad that these reverse-bigots, with ears and eyes firmly shut, are wearing the mantle of enlightenment.

Waiting For Fatwa A dear friend of mine who happens to be Jewish showed me an article in the NY Times on this woman. He`s a dear friend, but our disagreement on the Middle East politics couldn`t be stronger. One can see why he was so enamoured by this woman`s profile.


My question for non-Muslims is equally basic: Will you succumb to the intimidation of being called ``racists,`` or will you finally challenge us Muslims to take responsibility for our role in what ails Islam?

My Uncle Tom alarm is going off. The obvious implication is that there is something peculiarly wrong with ``Muslims`` and with Islam, which the non-Muslims, untainted by that malady can correct. Why can`t Muslims themselves address those problems? There is also an assumption that non-Muslims (from Hindus to Jews to Christians to Buddhists) don`t have problems in their own societies. And finally, it ignores the reality, that there is a small industry out there of Islam-critics with an ugly agenda of their own, just as intolerant, vitriolic in their hatred, as say, Osama bin Laden. And not a small portion of Ms. Manji`s cheerleaders are from that hateful camp.



“Call her crazy or call her courageous, Toronto journalist Irshad Manji is calling for reform in Islam — targeting what she calls its oppression of women, its tribalism and its attitudes toward Jews.”

Islamic attitudes towards pagans (Hindus, for example) are even more rotten than those towards Jews, and Qur`an is not very kind to Christians either. The fact that anti-Semitism is singled out in this manner is a very telling hint as to which group this woman seeks to pander, or which group will use her as a poster child. This is old hat. Very soon this idiot will be on Daniel Pipes` payroll.

YES heaven knows we need to question religion, especially Islam for its illogic, for its intolerance, for its misogyny, yes for its anti-Semitism, anti-Paganism, rigidity, irrationality, stupidity. Yes, we need to question it for all those things. But we should not at any cost, fall into the insidious trap of becoming pawns in the hands of those who have their own racist, tribalist agendas to advance.

Mapping Karachi’s Charms and Contradictions Re: sac:

Men on the other hand have a very sharp peak in the IQ distribution. Meaning there is a large variance in IQs of men. Explains a lot doesn`t it. Obviously being a `creative` writing major it will take you the whole day to figure out what it means and the rest of your life trying to debunk it. Good luck.


Sharp peak = large variance hahahahahahahaha

sac you`d do well to eat some baadaam yourself.

Why does everyone make fun of creative writing? What`s wrong with creative writing?

Mapping Karachi’s Charms and Contradictions Re: PunjabiZulu:

I read Kartography and was deeply, profoundly, massively underwhelmed. She is a mediocre writer. The whole novel meandered aimlessly, and there were some sentences which made me wince with embarassment.

and I am wincing with embarassment right now.