Train from Pakistan, 2004: The Return Kkkandk

Post#137

Just adding a bit to my previous post...

As I recall, few years ago, I met a Punjabi restauranteur who was running quite sucessful restaurant in one the cities in England. We were having casual conversation. He told me, even though he himself is a Punjabi but does not feel happy on seeing Punjabi customers in his restaurants. Comparative to Punjabis, he prefers Gujrati customers. He even learnt Gujrati so that he could communicate with them not only in restaurant or food related matters but otherwise too. And, he told me that Gujratis leave good tips, too. :)

In the same city, there was another restaurant (actually, a club), owned and managed by Sikh family. This was a big family so almost everyone from the family was working at this place. No, I did not get chance to interact with them on this but did have food there and enjoyed thoroughly. However, some months or maybe a year later when I visited that place again, with mental image of previous visit, I ordered almost the same dishes. When the food came, it was quite different in taste and I went to their chef and asked/told him about it. He admitted, yes, recipe of the food has changed because huge majority of their clientele is Gujratis. No, they had not Gujratised food all the way but some changes did take place. Just to give an idea, they were/this club was doing sales of over $125000 (hundred twenty five thousand) per month.

Train from Pakistan, 2004: The Return Kkkandk

Post#137

Just adding a bit more to my previous post, with one more incident...:)

In the same city, I got quite friendly with Gujrati muslim restauranteur. I think, he is originally from India, but I am not sure. Do know for sure that his wife is not.

Anyway, this man has or had done number of things in his life (including distribution/pirating Indian movies videos) but had not really been sucessful. He also ran a restaurant but did not work out. He used to drink himself and sell A drinks too. Nothing worked. About 5 years ago, he found one restaurant and took that one on lease. His kismet/luck changed. In this new restaurant, he had problems in getting bar/liqoure (spl?) licence and ultimately he could not. But, in the meanwhile, muslim crowd/guests/clientele started getting interested in his restaurant and they started patronising more.Restaurant became sucessful. Around 60% was muslim clientele and rest non muslim. However, overall, over 75% of the clientele was or is Gujratis (including muslims). His wife used to be Chef in the kitchen.

Couple of years ago, when I saw him, number of things we talked about (spent hours together). Among other things, his sale, which was around $31/32000 (thirty one or thirty two thousand) per month. And he was not only quite happy but satisfied too, in financial matters. His wife, who never had been to India prior to this, had been there for 3 times, since they started this restaurant. He himself had been there more. Not only that, they performed Haj too. And it was in a conversation like this, he himself told me about tipping. Btw he is Memon..I myself do not know much about it...

Must say here that since my last over there, I avoid going to his restaurant now for one reason only.:) I know, he will not charge me or ask for money...and knowing that, it is bit embarrasing/does not make it that comfortable... :) Tomorrow is another day! :)

Train from Pakistan, 2004: The Return Mantolives

Post#143

Quote:

`` Some objectivity .... after Veeresh`s one sided lies... ``

What lies has he written?

Let me make it very clear here that it is not about Veeresh the individual but the allegation that he lied. What lies he came up with, in this present article/part of travelogue?

One can fully understand two or more individuals having different perceptions, impressions. But alleging that one lied or is lying is a different matter. So what Lies did he come up with?

Train from Pakistan, 2004: The Return Kkkandk

Post#137

Quote:

`` Thanks for that important clarification.``

Difficult to respond to this as it is not clear if it is a sarcasm ..:)

`` The mere thought of Gujjus parting voluntarily with money that they don`t HAVE TO give is heart-warming.``

:) :)

Physical Theory and Empirical Verification Echoboom

Post#5

Thanks.

Will check/go thru the link.

Train from Pakistan, 2004: The Return KkkandK (and Stuka)

Quote:

``we are talking about tiping not eating and partying. Gujjus and tipping go together like mullas and lap dancing. Indians do eat out, but do not tip generously (if at all!). Indians, whether Punjabis or not, under the influence of ``firewater`` are another story - they start tipping as if they are Muslim fathers at their daughter`s wedding. ``

A slight mistake on my part. When I said Gujratis, I should have clarified that Gujratis mainly who have migrated from African countries to Europe/England. Sure many migrated to US too. It is possible that things may have not changed that much in US when it comes to tipping by Gujratis but my understanding is, in England it has/had changed quite a lot.

Only till couple of years ago, in London alone, there were (I am not very clear on the present situation, as of now) 90/100 Indian clubs (drinks/food/big screen to watch matches and/or Indian movies, songs from Indian movies). Majority is owned/run/managed by Gujratis. And main clientele is also Gujratis. Without reasonable tips at places like these, clubs would have been closed long ago. And no, salaries are not high in these clubs at all. These clubs and restaurants like these are not limited to London but are well spread out in other parts too. Well, that was the case at least till couple of years ago, as I understand.

Second, when I said Punjabis being biggest tippers, that was in the context of Indian communities in India. Influence of firewater does have a role to play, but not always or all the way.

Veeresh has mentioned cold cuts in La Rochelle (spl?)...would like to remind him and Stuka of Serpent Coffee (by way of flambe) which became a big thing in that restaurant. Originally it was known as Pichoo coffee as it was created by him. People used to tip him much more than the price/cost of coffee (this has nothing to do with tipping in general, which was/is being talked about) ... :)

As to Imperial, prefer to keep that image of white coloured coffee shop, and sitting in the garden in winter sun, among many other things/images..:)

Physical Theory and Empirical Verification Mohammad Gill

I neither claim nor pretend to know anything on this subject. However, I thoroughly enjoy reading material, and watching documentaries/news items on subjects like these. Yes, I do like your articles too, on this subject.

On your last article too, I was thinking of interacting but somehow did not come around to it. In this article, following sentence/quote has given me an opening to ask a question which has been on my mind for some time now.

Quote from the article:

`` Verification is the ultimate test of a theory; it is the touchstone. A theory not verified by empirical evidence is metaphysics.``

Given that there hardly is any way for String Theory (be it Mother/Father or whatever other name is added to it) to be proven in any lab or otherwise, how is it any different from metaphysics, or philosphy?

Have watched a programme made by Dr Greene on String Theory. In that, the kind of words, language used, reminds one of philosophical world/language. In other words, there is so much of mumbo jumbo that one is not sure if one is talking of, or lisening to Science from Scientists or is it the case of philosphers coming out with their philosphy, metaphysics. Many physicists in that programme admitted that String Theory can never be validation/verfication of String Theory.

Let me give one example of the language used in that programme..

When topic came on more than 10 dimensions, some physicist/s said, ``What we as humans are witnessing now could be an illusion. Our existence is not real, and this is not a real world.`` Words to this effect were used by him/them.

How the above is any different from some philosphers saying, `` This is all Maya`` ?Maya=Illusion.

Above is just one of the examples. There were plenty more. Seriously, it was so much that I was not sure if I really was watching programme on science or philosphy, or good blend of the two....

Train from Pakistan, 2004: The Return Stuka

Post#33

Actually, Veeresh is not that off the mark when it comes to tipping, and Indians. Since you already have some experience in hospitatlity industry you may have known that when it comes to tipping, Punjabis (from India)were (not sure what the situation is now) the most generous and biggest tippers. Not all but a sizeable majority.

As to Indians visiting Indian restaurants overseas, well, things have changed there too. It may surprise you to know that there are hundreds (yes, hundreds) of Indian food restaurants in Europe, mainly in UK, which do fantastic business from Indian clientele only. Restaurnteur or the staff of the restaurant is not dependent on local people for the business and/or tips. Indians are their main clientele/guests. As said earlier, things have changed quite a lot.

Oh, another thing...guess now Gujratis (local ones who live overseas) are perhaps bigger spenders in overseas Indian restaurants, function rooms, Indian clubs, banquet halls and so on..

When Darcy and Lalita get laid… Farzana Versey

Quote:

`` Since when has Amritsar become “rural”?``

Actually, almost always it has been that way only, when seen from the eyes of Delhi/Bombay (on purpose, I am not adding Calcutta, Madras). Though Amritsar has been a city on its own but it has been kind of C or D category (rankwise and not something derogatory). And not just Amritsar but there have been many other cities too. Amritsar, when seen from the eyes of Punjab, it certainly is a city (if I am not mistaken, perhaps, Chandigarh has been taken more as a city compartive to Amritsar. But, I could be wrong on this.). And this is not just about Amritsar but thru out the world, situation has not been that different. Meaning, when comparing with metropolitan cities, other cities are taken more as pind/rural. Sure, there are B class/catergory cities too, in between...

Nearby Bombay/Mumbai, there are Nasik and Nagpur, Aurgangabad too...ask Bombayites/Mumbaites how they rank or feel about these cities, when it comes to comparing with Bombay/Mumbai..:) In general, of course...:)

Btw, my understanding is, this director already has got a confirmed deal from Hollywood.:) They have given her budget of $100 million to make a movie. :)

Above has been said in a very light hearted manner...

The Commonality of ’Fundamentalisms’ Post#26

`` What hard questions are being asked here? ``

Read the debate and all the posts on the subject and one can find the questions asked, and addressed. Don`t expect from me to do your own homework.

Quote:

`` Cutting and pasting pages of text does not contribute to any discussion. It is bad netiquette. ``

On its own, a fair comment. However, I do not see anybody raising question/objection when day in and out, article after article is posted here when it comes to Gujrat riots. Why this bhashan/lecture on etiquette (spl?)netiquette now? Lectures/bhashans only when suitable to one`s own whims, is called being biased/prejudiced.

Quote:

`` If you wish to draw attention to some debate raging in some other forum then please post the link to that other debate. Otherwise there is no difference between your posts and the ramblings of MBZI.``

If you want others to believe that you really know and have netiquettes, you would have made a general comment about copy pasting in general and not directed specifically at me. Especially when so many other articles have been posted on Gujrat riots and you kept silent at that time. Otherwise, there is no difference between ramblings of a biased/prejudiced person and your post, on the subject.

So keep this lecture of netiquette to yourself. First, lead with example.

Quote:

`` It is frustrating for other interactors to come to a board and find people doing meaningless cut-and-paste. ``

Quite a fair comment, in general.

How that Other Democracy (India) Differs Veeresh

Following has been written by Shahid, in post#8

Quote:

`` Your article doesn`t say anything and is really a bizarre concoction of disparate thoughts. You title your article: ``How that Other Democracy (India) Differs``. So...how does it differ? It is a title/question, which warrants serious thought of which you have shown none. ``

Actually, this makes quite a bit of sense. Title of the aricle is really catchy and accordingly, one was expecting to see some serious thoughts, comparisons in the article but, as noticed by Shahid, there hardly is any which warrants the title that has been given to the article.

Quote from the article:

`` Anybody who claims to be interested in Indian politics is well advised to read this book if they want to get into the depth of many of the widely held perceptions about Indian politics. ``

This is a very strong statement. One would be bit sceptical about it. Surely, it is not expected that those two gentlemen are the last word on Indian politics...

The Commonality of ’Fundamentalisms’ When unable to answer questions asked, fail to back up the claim/s, indulge in time tested tactics...and that is to attack the individual..Great! But then, nothing new in this..

The Commonality of ’Fundamentalisms’ Quote:

`` Great! Raj Singhi is ruining another board. To misquote Sardesai “mujhe lagta hai ke Raj Singhi aur MBZ Isphani aik hi sikkey ki do sides hain`` ``

So long it is anti India stuff in one form or another, it is a good board and topic, as per wisdom being displayed above (quoted part)...

The moment some hard questions are asked, it is ruining the board..some wisdom at display here...

And perhaps, this is how the writer wants to elevate the standard of board..by giving judgement..

The Commonality of ’Fundamentalisms’ Post 5 (which basically is response by Ombudsman to post 4) from an exchange, mentioned already...


Words (in italics) of Mr Spock..as follows..

`` give me a reasonable degree of certainty about the IMMINENCE of an active Islamist threat to the life, limb and peroperty of the Hindus in India…"

(Words/response of Ombudsman, to the above,...as follows..)

Are we indulging in neocon-ism bajarangi style sir ji?

The imminent threat of the weapons of mass destruction, the imminent threat of Saddam’s nuclear program, the imminent threat of missiles ready to launch in 45 minutes?

Just by saying something is imminent don’t make it one. Otherwise we won’t have a royal screw up in Iraq on our hands.

(Words of Mr Spock being quoted...as follows...)

`` If you add a statistically significant concept like growth rate, you only aggravate an already worsening situation, and elevate the threat level/imminence.``

(Response to the above by Ombudsman, as follows..)

If I read the report correctly, the growth rate of the minority is actually coming down, not going up. The direction is the right one. So where is the imminence? Who knows that with time they will achieve the growth rate of Bangladesh and Indonesia, both muslim countries with lower growth rate than India.

(Words of Mr Spock being quoted, as follows..)

`` What do we say to the Bajrangis who ask this question, sir? :)

(Response to the above by Ombudsman, as follows..)

Tell them their priorities are misplaced. :)

(Words of Mr Spock being quoted, as follows..)

`` They believe - and rightly so - that protagonists of TRANSNATIONAL evangelical religions have done INCACULABLE harm to SECULAR ideals in a nation,- promoting hedonism over holism, conflict instead of cooperation and competition over convergence. The EDUCATED and AFFLUENT among these evangelical FAITHFULS - egged on by the glory-days of history - are more virulent in their transnational dreams, words and deeds.

(Response to the above, by Ombudsman, as follows..)

Strong words indeed.

(Words of Mr Spock being quoted, as follows...)

`` And the Bajrangis ( like the Israelis, the Chinese, the Russians and the US in the rest of the world ) have become the available instruments through which these necrotic tendencies can be capped, reduced and rolled back in the Indian subcontinent.

(Response to the above by Ombudsman, as follows..)

Hold your galloping horses sir. Bajrangis can be compared to discredited neocons, not to Russians, Israelis, Chinese and the rest of the world. They can`t even be compared to a great majority of real hindus. :))

(Words of Mr Spock being quoted...as follows..)

`` If left unchecked now, there is but certainty about civil wars and clash of civilisations, which would inflict more damage on a global scale than the local skirmishes we see today.

(Response to the above by Ombudsman, as follows...)

Are we indulging in scare tactics here sir ji?

(Words of Mr Spock being quoted...as follows.)

`` What insecurity are we talking of?

Even the worst Bajrangi demand is merely an Indianisation of the Islam and Christianity ( much like what China has done )

(Ombudsman`s response to above, as follows ....)


Would you and other NRI’s accept the Americanization or westernization of Hindu religion, southern baptist style? What was your reaction when southern Baptists brought out a booklet couple of years ago criticizing hindu religion, saying that hindus are still living in dark ages and need to reform their pagan ways. How would you feel if the recommendation is adopted by the majority or the government? Can the Southern Baptists claim like you that their worst demand is merely a westernization of the hindu religion?

(Mr Spock`s words being quoted, as follows)

`` It is their way to divide the world into good and evil, believers and heathens, Momin and Kufr, the victor and the vanquished, the chosen and the condemned.``

(Ombudsman replies to the above, as follows.)

And bajrangis want to adopt their divisive ways in our own country to divide the country.

(Mr Spock`s words are being qouted, as follows..)

``And, then, sir, we can start dealing with the ``real`` problems of poverty, illiteracy etc.

(Ombudsman`s response to the above, as follows..)

The real Indians are addressing the real problems now, and succeeding. Any time the neoconist bajrangi fringe minority wants to join in, they will be welcome. :))

The Commonality of ’Fundamentalisms’ Post 4, from an exchange on the said subject...

Mr Spock reply while quoting some the words/points of Ombudsman...

Ombudsman`s words..as follows:

``The passion in your response is almost overwhelming. :))

Mr Spock`s reply to the above, as follows..

It is intentional sir. :)

Emotive discussions merit emotive delineations.

Ombudsman`s words quoted as follows...

Are you sure Dr. Spock? Future insecurity of a hindu minority in an Islamic state and imminent threat?

You say the priority of an individual is FIRST to overcome an imminent threat.

Imminent threat? Are you sure Dr. Spock?

Mr Spock`s reply to the above, as follows..

Sure I am sure.

Coupled with the meteoric rise of the Taliban and Jamaat in Pakistan, the GIA in Algeria etc, and the current trends of inhuman brutalities/mayhem against hapless Hinus in Bangladesh, Doda in Jammu, the Srinagar Valley and other pockets of India ( Mumbai, Coimbatore, Godhra, Akshardham, Parliament ) - as also the hills of Nagaland, Meghalaya and Tripura - give me a reasonable degree of certainty about the IMMINENCE of an active Islamist threat to the life, limb and peroperty of the Hindus in India, and - if left unchecked - the known certainty of oppression/suppression/extermination/eviction of a possible Hindu minority in India in the future.

Words of Ombudsman, being quoted as follows..

`` Do you really believe it is a priority for an individual hindu to worry about a higher growth rate of a minority community?

Mr Spock`s reply to the above...

You are passionately clinging to a strawman, sir.

To quote an eminent SECULAR Muslim intellectual from Bangladesh - Shahriar Kabir - the worry of EVERY secular person ( Hindu AND Muslim ) should be about an Islamist threat to the VERY FABRIC of peaceful secular coexistence in India and the rest of the Indian subcontinent.

That threat is merely compounded by the fact that there is a rising popularity of Saudi-funded Wahabi organisations in India and its neighbourhood ( SIMI, Deenadar Anjuman, Markaz Da`wa-ul-Irshad , Hizb-ut-Tahrir ) among a wide cross-section of Muslims,- uneducated AND educated, poor AND rich.

If you add a statistically significant concept like growth rate, you only aggravate an already worsening situation, and elevate the threat level/imminence.

Words of Ombudsman being quoted as follows..

`` This may be a potential problem in a couple of hundred years if things continue the same way, but priority now?``

Mr Spock`s reply to the above...

If you ask me if it is really a priority for an individual Hindu to worry about it, I may have to give you the age-old English dictum in times of crises :

``If not you, who ? If not now, when ?``

What do we say to the Bajrangis who ask this question, sir ? :)

Ombudsman`s words being quoted as follows...

`` Dr. Spock, you seem to worry too much. Have some confidence in the newer generations of hindus that will come to resolve the problems facing their time. Let us worry about our real priorities, poverty, hunger, discrimination, and illiteracy of a large segment of society.

Mr Spock`s reply to the above, as follows ..

Aren`t you passing the buck ?

I could do the same, turn your argument upside down, and say :

Mr Ombudsman, you seem to worry too much. Have some confidence in the newer generation of Indians that will come to resolve the problems facing their time ,- poverty, hunger, discrimination, and illiteracy of a large segment of their society. Let us worry about our real priority - the safety and security of our life, limb and property, and the peaceful future of our progeny.


Would that help ? :)

Ombudsman`s words being quoted...as follows ...

`` Even if their aim is genuine, the way bajrangis want to achieve it is totally wrong.``

Mr Spock`s reply to the above, as follows ..

Again this argument is a case of a blind misleading the blind, sir.

The hardcore Bajrangis are a fringe minority among Hindus.

The real power to act is in the hands of those that sympathise with the cause.

They believe - and rightly so - that protagonists of TRANSNATIONAL evangelical religions have done INCACULABLE harm to SECULAR ideals in a nation,- promoting hedonism over holism, conflict instead of cooperation and competition over convergence.


The EDUCATED and AFFLUENT among these evangelical FAITHFULS - egged on by the glory-days of history - are more virulent in their transnational dreams, words and deeds.


Only a JOLT now can snap them out of their world-necrosis reverie. And the Bajrangis ( like the Israelis, the Chinese, the Russians and the US in the rest of the world ) have become the available instruments through which these necrotic tendencies can be capped, reduced and rolled back in the Indian subcontinent.


If left unchecked now, there is but certainty about civil wars and clash of civilisations, which would inflict more damage on a global scale than the local skirmishes we see today.

Ombudsman`s words being quoted...as follows ....

`` To remove their own future insecurity, they want to create insecurity in a large segment of the population.``

Mr Spock`s reply to the above...as follows ...

What insecurity are we talking of, sir ?

Even the worst Bajrangi demand is merely an Indianisation of the Islam and Christianity ( much like what China has done ) - an attempt to stem the transnational interests of the rising Wahabi/Baptist sentiments among the minorities.

To quote a favourite Bajrang quip,- ``worse comes to worst, Muslims can seek refuge in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Where can the Hindus of Indian subcontinent go to seek refuge in`` ?


Whose insecurity is greater, sir ?

Ombudsman`s words being quoted.....as follows...

`` Instead of integrating the society, their way is dividing it. No country has or can progress by making its minorities feel insecure.``

Mr Spock`s reply to the above...as follows ...

I suggest you take that argument to the Vatican and Mecca/Cairo/Riyadh, sir.


It is their way to divide the world into good and evil, believers and heathens, Momin and Kufr, the victor and the vanquished, the chosen and the condemned.


Perhaps they ought to change their positions once and for all, and make their transnational followers subscribe to this change in body, mind and soul.

I can assure you that - soon thereafter - the great Upanishadic dictum ``Udara Charitanam tu Vasudha eva Kutumbakum`` ( to the High Intellect, the world is a family ) will become the accepted order of the day.

And, then, sir, we can start dealing with the ``real`` problems of poverty, illiteracy etc.

The Commonality of ’Fundamentalisms’ In my post 3, don`t know how so much content got underlined...It was meant to be only few words ...