“Final” solution?
Quote:
`` The army was facing insurgency there and their abuses are similar to the ones being committed by the Indian security forces in Kashmir now and the even worst crimes being committed by the americans in Iraq. ``
Once again, a comparison is being made here/above more for the sake of it than it has much of substance in reality.
If Indian security forces are committing similar abuses as Pakistani forces did in erstwhile East Pakistan, then where are the millions of refugees from J&K? Have they vanished in Pakistan? And when there are no refugees on that scale then how Indian security forces could have been committing abuses on the scale of Pakistani forces? Why compare the two for the sake of it?
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 7, 2004 08:21 am
Dost MittarQuote:
`` The army was facing insurgency there and their abuses are similar to the ones being committed by the Indian security forces in Kashmir now and the even worst crimes being committed by the americans in Iraq. ``
Once again, a comparison is being made here/above more for the sake of it than it has much of substance in reality.
If Indian security forces are committing similar abuses as Pakistani forces did in erstwhile East Pakistan, then where are the millions of refugees from J&K? Have they vanished in Pakistan? And when there are no refugees on that scale then how Indian security forces could have been committing abuses on the scale of Pakistani forces? Why compare the two for the sake of it?
“Final” solution?
Post#71
Quote:
`` And yes, I agree that Morarji Desai was right about India doing a favour to Pakistan by amputating the eastern wing. Why did you think that he got Sitara-e-Imtiaz from Pakistan? :-) ``
Pray what did Morarji Desai do or contribute in creating Bangladesh?
I have noticed the smilie sign but implication here still is as if Morarji Desai played some role in creating Bangladesh.
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 7, 2004 07:57 am
Dost MittarPost#71
Quote:
`` And yes, I agree that Morarji Desai was right about India doing a favour to Pakistan by amputating the eastern wing. Why did you think that he got Sitara-e-Imtiaz from Pakistan? :-) ``
Pray what did Morarji Desai do or contribute in creating Bangladesh?
I have noticed the smilie sign but implication here still is as if Morarji Desai played some role in creating Bangladesh.
The Doll’s House
`` Was the point of contention between the North and South largely about slavery? Yes, of course. No one is even really disputing that. Was the war that resulted from this disagreement about slavery? No. And it`s very important to understand the distinction, subtle though it may be.
Let`s try another example. Child pornography is a problem. You`ll find very few people who are in favor of it, just as you`ll find few in favor of slavery. But now let`s say the Government wanted to stop child pornography and they decide that since a lot of child pornography is on the internet, they need to shut the internet down. Now if you decide the oppose the government in shutting the internet down, does that mean you`re in favor of child pornography? Of course not. While that was what caused the dispute, it`s not what the dispute itself is about.
The North and South were opposed on the issue of slavery and it drove them apart. The secession of the Southern states was basically about slavery and their Constitutional rights to continue it, and thereby protect their economic livlihood. In response, the North went to war for the purpose of stopping that secession, not to stop slavery. He didn`t even try to stop slavery until two years into the war.
I say it`s important to note the difference because if you think the war was about slavery, then it becomes all too easy to just pass it off as a good vs. evil struggle where the righteous Union marched into the evil Confederacy and forced them to stop their slavin` ways, end of story. But if that`s what you think, you completely miss the real history of what happened. You miss how we went as a country from a collection of states, to a an entity driven by a central power. You miss the precedent and curcumstance by which the federal government came into ascendance and you`re more likely to believe that it`s simply always been that way and that`s how the Founding Fathers intended it. But that`s not the case. This is not the government they had in mind, at least not entirely. One of the major sources of checks and balances is gone. The states no longer have the ability to oppose the federal government and so the federal government has turned into something monstrous in size and no longer entirely clear in its purpose and intent. And this all goes back to Lincoln and the Civil War. But if you want to continue thinking it was about slavery and nothing more, then all this is lost on you. ``
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 7, 2004 07:55 am
Quoting the following from another debate on the same subject...`` Was the point of contention between the North and South largely about slavery? Yes, of course. No one is even really disputing that. Was the war that resulted from this disagreement about slavery? No. And it`s very important to understand the distinction, subtle though it may be.
Let`s try another example. Child pornography is a problem. You`ll find very few people who are in favor of it, just as you`ll find few in favor of slavery. But now let`s say the Government wanted to stop child pornography and they decide that since a lot of child pornography is on the internet, they need to shut the internet down. Now if you decide the oppose the government in shutting the internet down, does that mean you`re in favor of child pornography? Of course not. While that was what caused the dispute, it`s not what the dispute itself is about.
The North and South were opposed on the issue of slavery and it drove them apart. The secession of the Southern states was basically about slavery and their Constitutional rights to continue it, and thereby protect their economic livlihood. In response, the North went to war for the purpose of stopping that secession, not to stop slavery. He didn`t even try to stop slavery until two years into the war.
I say it`s important to note the difference because if you think the war was about slavery, then it becomes all too easy to just pass it off as a good vs. evil struggle where the righteous Union marched into the evil Confederacy and forced them to stop their slavin` ways, end of story. But if that`s what you think, you completely miss the real history of what happened. You miss how we went as a country from a collection of states, to a an entity driven by a central power. You miss the precedent and curcumstance by which the federal government came into ascendance and you`re more likely to believe that it`s simply always been that way and that`s how the Founding Fathers intended it. But that`s not the case. This is not the government they had in mind, at least not entirely. One of the major sources of checks and balances is gone. The states no longer have the ability to oppose the federal government and so the federal government has turned into something monstrous in size and no longer entirely clear in its purpose and intent. And this all goes back to Lincoln and the Civil War. But if you want to continue thinking it was about slavery and nothing more, then all this is lost on you. ``
The Doll’s House
Post#498
If you feel I have just picked a sentence from your post and going by that only, say so and/or feel free not to react/respond to it.
Quote:
`` Not a month passes in this “aspiring to be civilized” country when members of the minority community are not killed only because they belong to a religious minority.``
Assuming reference is to India. If that is the case, then it would be very, very hard to even show (note, I am not saying prove) that it is the case. Rumours/perceptions is a different matter. Things are not that bad at all in India.
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 6, 2004 12:30 pm
HPPost#498
If you feel I have just picked a sentence from your post and going by that only, say so and/or feel free not to react/respond to it.
Quote:
`` Not a month passes in this “aspiring to be civilized” country when members of the minority community are not killed only because they belong to a religious minority.``
Assuming reference is to India. If that is the case, then it would be very, very hard to even show (note, I am not saying prove) that it is the case. Rumours/perceptions is a different matter. Things are not that bad at all in India.
The Doll’s House
Here is another resolution, directly from the Congress/House itself...and no where this too mentions anything about abolition of slavery ....
It can not be copy/pasted so self typing.
37th Congress, 1st Session
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES.
JULY 25, 1861
Mr Clark asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to bring in the following Joint Resolution; which was read the first and second time, ordered to lie on the table, and be printed.
.... JOINT RESOLUTION
Declaratory of the determination of the Congress to maintain supermacy of the government and integrity of the Union.
Be it resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
That we, as representatives of the people and States, respectively, do hereby declare our fixed determination to maintain the supermacy of the government and the integrity of the Union of all these United States; and to this end, as far as we may do so, we pledge the entire resources of the government and people, until all rebels shall submit to the one, and cease their efforts to destroy the other.
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 6, 2004 09:41 am
HindviHere is another resolution, directly from the Congress/House itself...and no where this too mentions anything about abolition of slavery ....
It can not be copy/pasted so self typing.
37th Congress, 1st Session
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES.
JULY 25, 1861
Mr Clark asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to bring in the following Joint Resolution; which was read the first and second time, ordered to lie on the table, and be printed.
.... JOINT RESOLUTION
Declaratory of the determination of the Congress to maintain supermacy of the government and integrity of the Union.
Be it resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
That we, as representatives of the people and States, respectively, do hereby declare our fixed determination to maintain the supermacy of the government and the integrity of the Union of all these United States; and to this end, as far as we may do so, we pledge the entire resources of the government and people, until all rebels shall submit to the one, and cease their efforts to destroy the other.
The Doll’s House
Post #480
Quote:
``and you accuse dost mittar of making up stuff? is their a difference between preserving unity and making a strong center or they are the same thing in your eyes? Lincoln was avoiding conflict at all costs this is the concensus among all US historians, he waged war only when they seceded. ``
Where has this come from? Issue was slavery, and whether civil war was fought for the abolition of slavery or not. And I have been presenting case by giving facts that it was not about slavery when the civil war started. Slavery is an after thought. If you want to discuss other aspects, sure, you are welcome. However, let us stick to this issue of slavery first as this is already being discussed.
Quote:
`` and then ``Southern states or states which went ahead with secession, had done that peacefully`` have you heard of Fort Sumter sir? ``
I have heard of that, Sir. Now, please familiarise yourself with the sequence of events. And this is a historical data, not made by me or someone else. Look at the dates...
**********
Dec 20, 1860 - South Carolina secedes from the Union. Followed within two months by Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas.
Feb 9, 1861 - The Confederate States of America is formed with Jefferson Davis, a West Point graduate and former U.S. Army officer, as president.
March 4, 1861 - Abraham Lincoln is sworn in as 16th President of the United States of America.
April 12, 1861 - At 4:30 a.m. Confederates under Gen. Pierre Beauregard open fire with 50 cannons upon Fort Sumter in Charleston, South Carolina. The Civil War begins.
***********
Civil war begins, almost 4 months after some of the states had seceded peacefully.
Quote:
`` And do you believe Slavery was only abolished in the South and continued to exist in the north? ``
What is there to believe or not believe. It is in black and white. I think, I took that link from US Congressional records which says, ratification of abolition on slavery took place in December 1865.
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 6, 2004 07:52 am
HindviPost #480
Quote:
``and you accuse dost mittar of making up stuff? is their a difference between preserving unity and making a strong center or they are the same thing in your eyes? Lincoln was avoiding conflict at all costs this is the concensus among all US historians, he waged war only when they seceded. ``
Where has this come from? Issue was slavery, and whether civil war was fought for the abolition of slavery or not. And I have been presenting case by giving facts that it was not about slavery when the civil war started. Slavery is an after thought. If you want to discuss other aspects, sure, you are welcome. However, let us stick to this issue of slavery first as this is already being discussed.
Quote:
`` and then ``Southern states or states which went ahead with secession, had done that peacefully`` have you heard of Fort Sumter sir? ``
I have heard of that, Sir. Now, please familiarise yourself with the sequence of events. And this is a historical data, not made by me or someone else. Look at the dates...
**********
Dec 20, 1860 - South Carolina secedes from the Union. Followed within two months by Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas.
Feb 9, 1861 - The Confederate States of America is formed with Jefferson Davis, a West Point graduate and former U.S. Army officer, as president.
March 4, 1861 - Abraham Lincoln is sworn in as 16th President of the United States of America.
April 12, 1861 - At 4:30 a.m. Confederates under Gen. Pierre Beauregard open fire with 50 cannons upon Fort Sumter in Charleston, South Carolina. The Civil War begins.
***********
Civil war begins, almost 4 months after some of the states had seceded peacefully.
Quote:
`` And do you believe Slavery was only abolished in the South and continued to exist in the north? ``
What is there to believe or not believe. It is in black and white. I think, I took that link from US Congressional records which says, ratification of abolition on slavery took place in December 1865.
The Doll’s House
Here, some more on choronology of Civil War and this one also Confirms that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery...Main points I have highlighted in bold ..
1860
November 6 - Abraham Lincoln elected President of the United States.
December 14 - A call issued in Georgia for a convention to deliberate on a Southern Confederacy.
December 20 - South Carolina seceded from the Union.
1861
January 9 - Mississippi seceded from the Union.
January 10 - Florida seceded from the Union.
January 11 - Alabama seceded from the Union.
January 19 - Georgia seceded from the Union.
January 21 - The legislature of New York and other free states pledge support to the Union.
January 26 - Louisiana seceded from the Union.
January 29 - Kansas admitted to the Union.
February 1 - Texas seceded from the Union.
February 4 - Seceded states held a Convention in Montgomery, Alabama.
February 8 - Convention being held in Montgomery adopted a Confederate Constitution.
February 9 - Jefferson Davis elected president of the Confederate States.
February 18 - Jefferson Davis inaugurated as President of the Confederacy. After taking the oath of office as the Vice President of the Confederacy, Alexander H. Stephens, a former Congressman from Georgia, stated that: ``Our new government is founded on the opposite idea of the equality of the races . . . Its corner stone rests upon the great truth that the Negro is not equal to the white man. This . . . government is the first in the history of the world, based on this great physical and moral truth.``
March 4 - Abraham Lincoln inaugurated as sixteenth President of the United States.
April 12 - The Confederates fired upon Fort Sumter, South Carolina.
April 15 - An announcement was made by President Abraham Lincoln that an insurrection was in progress and the call went out to loyal states to supply troops.
April 17 - Virginia seceded from the Union.
April 19 - A projected trip to Haiti was canceled by Frederick Douglass and he called for the recruitment of Black troops.
May 6 - Arkansas seceded from the Union.
May 20 - North Carolina seceded from the Union.
May 24 - General Benjamin Butler coined the phrase “contraband of war” and refused to surrender slaves who had sought refuge in his command at Fort Monroe, Virginia.
July 22 - The Crittenden Resolution passes the U.S. House of Representatives, affirming the fact that the war was being fought to preserve the Union and not to interfere with slavery. (A note here by self: What more evidence is required to show that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery?)
July 25 - Crittenden Resolution approved by the U.S. Senate on motion by Andrew Johnson of Tennessee. He later became Governor of Tennessee and Vice-President and President of the United States.
August 14 - General John C. Fremont declared “martial law” in St. Louis, Missouri. Confederate sentiment was widespread in the area.
August 16 - Confederate states declared to be in a state of insurrection by President Lincoln.
August 30 - General Fremont issued an order confiscating property of Confederates and emancipation of their slaves. The order caused wide protest and was disavowed by President Lincoln.
October 2 - General Fremont relieved of command by President Lincoln.
(Above act of Lincoln is further proof that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery)
1862
January 15 - A letter was written by General Thomas Sherman requesting the War Department send teachers to Port Royal, South Carolina to teach ex-slaves left on plantations under control of Union forces. Edward L. Pierce submitted a plan which subsequently began the Port Royal Experiment.
February 4 - The enrolling of free Blacks in the Confederate Army was debated in the Virginia House of Delegates. No action was taken.
April 3 - The U.S. Senate voted 29-14 to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia.
April 11 - The U.S. House of Representatives voted 93-39 to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia.
May 1 - General Benjamin Butler takes command of the Military Department of the Gulf in New Orleans, Louisiana.
May 9 - General David Hunter, Commander of the Department of the South (Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina), issued an Emancipation Proclamation freeing all slaves in those states and also authorized the arming of able-bodied ex-slaves. Shortly thereafter, he organized the 1st South Carolina Colored Regiment. The unit was subsequently disbanded except for one company.
May 13 - Robert Small sails the Confederate gunboat Planter from Charleston and delivers it to Union Navy.
May 19 - President Lincoln repudiates General David Hunter`s Emancipation Act of May 9 and disavows his order.
July 17 - Adoption of the Second Confiscation Act and Militia Act by the Administration which authorized emancipation and the employment of fugitive slave labor as weapons of war. The two Act declared “forever free” all captured and fugitive slaves of the Confederates and authorized the mobilization of Blacks in “any military or naval service for which they may be found competent.”
August 11 - General Ulysses S. Grant issued an order in Corinth, Mississippi utilizing the services of all fugitive slaves behind his lines.
August 14 - President Lincoln advocated the colonization of Blacks in Central America during a meeting with a delegation of free Blacks.
August 21 - Union Generals David Hunter and John Phelps denounced by Confederate President because of their wish to recruit slaves for the Union Army.
September 16 - Abolitionist Frederick Douglass rejected the proposal by President Lincoln to colonize free Blacks in Central America.
September 22 - The first draft of Emancipation Proclamation read to the cabinet by President Lincoln.
September 27 thru November 24 - The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Louisiana Native Guard Regiments (African Descent) organized and mustered into the Union Army in New Orleans.
October 10 - Confederate President Jefferson Davis requested the state of Virginia to draft 4500 Blacks to build fortifications around Richmond.
1863
January 1 - President Lincoln issues Emancipation Proclamation. The document was directed only to the states that seceded from the Union. Slaves states that remained with the Union was not affected.
January 12 - The Confederate Congress approved President Jefferson Davis’ proclamation of December 23, 1862.
January 20 - Governor John A. Andrew of Massachusetts was authorized by Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton to recruit and organize Black soldiers.
January 26 - The 1st South Carolina Volunteer Regiment (African Descent) engage the enemy at Township, Florida, shortly after being mustered in at Beaufort.
March 21 - Frederick Douglass issues a declaration, Men of Color, To Arms. He began to recruit troops, including his sons Charles and Lewis.
March 26 - The Secretary of War issued an order directing Adjutant General Lorenzo Thomas to organize black regiments in the Mississippi Valley.
1864
February 20 - Battle of Olustee (Florida). Heavy losses suffered by the Union forces that included the 54th Massachusetts Volunteers, the 8th and 35th United States Colored Infantry Regiments. The Union forces were defeated.
April 8 - Thirteenth Amendment passes the U.S. Senate by a vote of 38-6.
April 12 - Massacre of Union Soldiers, Black enlisted and White officers, at Fort Pillow, Tennessee.
June 15 - Thirteenth Amendment falls short of the required two-thirds majority in the U.S. House of Representatives by a vote of 96-66.
July 8 - President Lincoln announces support of the Thirteenth Amendment.
November 8 - President Lincoln re-elected.
November 30 - Battle of Honey Hill, South Carolina. Participating were the 54th and 55th Massachusetts Volunteers, the 32nd, 35th, and 102nd U.S. Colored Infantry Regiments.
December 3 - The 25th Army Corps organized. (The first and only army corps made up of all-Black infantry regiments.)
December 6 - President Lincoln in the Annual Message to Congress requested reconsideration of the Thirteenth Amendment.
1865
January 1 - The U.S. House of Representatives began to debate the Thirteenth Amendment.
January 31 - Thirteenth Amendment passes the House of Representatives by a vote of 119-56.
December 18 - Thirteenth Amendment ratified after approval by twenty-seven states. (Delaware, Kentucky, New Jersey, and Mississippi rejected the amendment.)
http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/cwchron.htm
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 6, 2004 07:52 am
HindviHere, some more on choronology of Civil War and this one also Confirms that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery...Main points I have highlighted in bold ..
1860
November 6 - Abraham Lincoln elected President of the United States.
December 14 - A call issued in Georgia for a convention to deliberate on a Southern Confederacy.
December 20 - South Carolina seceded from the Union.
1861
January 9 - Mississippi seceded from the Union.
January 10 - Florida seceded from the Union.
January 11 - Alabama seceded from the Union.
January 19 - Georgia seceded from the Union.
January 21 - The legislature of New York and other free states pledge support to the Union.
January 26 - Louisiana seceded from the Union.
January 29 - Kansas admitted to the Union.
February 1 - Texas seceded from the Union.
February 4 - Seceded states held a Convention in Montgomery, Alabama.
February 8 - Convention being held in Montgomery adopted a Confederate Constitution.
February 9 - Jefferson Davis elected president of the Confederate States.
February 18 - Jefferson Davis inaugurated as President of the Confederacy. After taking the oath of office as the Vice President of the Confederacy, Alexander H. Stephens, a former Congressman from Georgia, stated that: ``Our new government is founded on the opposite idea of the equality of the races . . . Its corner stone rests upon the great truth that the Negro is not equal to the white man. This . . . government is the first in the history of the world, based on this great physical and moral truth.``
March 4 - Abraham Lincoln inaugurated as sixteenth President of the United States.
April 12 - The Confederates fired upon Fort Sumter, South Carolina.
April 15 - An announcement was made by President Abraham Lincoln that an insurrection was in progress and the call went out to loyal states to supply troops.
April 17 - Virginia seceded from the Union.
April 19 - A projected trip to Haiti was canceled by Frederick Douglass and he called for the recruitment of Black troops.
May 6 - Arkansas seceded from the Union.
May 20 - North Carolina seceded from the Union.
May 24 - General Benjamin Butler coined the phrase “contraband of war” and refused to surrender slaves who had sought refuge in his command at Fort Monroe, Virginia.
July 22 - The Crittenden Resolution passes the U.S. House of Representatives, affirming the fact that the war was being fought to preserve the Union and not to interfere with slavery. (A note here by self: What more evidence is required to show that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery?)
July 25 - Crittenden Resolution approved by the U.S. Senate on motion by Andrew Johnson of Tennessee. He later became Governor of Tennessee and Vice-President and President of the United States.
August 14 - General John C. Fremont declared “martial law” in St. Louis, Missouri. Confederate sentiment was widespread in the area.
August 16 - Confederate states declared to be in a state of insurrection by President Lincoln.
August 30 - General Fremont issued an order confiscating property of Confederates and emancipation of their slaves. The order caused wide protest and was disavowed by President Lincoln.
October 2 - General Fremont relieved of command by President Lincoln.
(Above act of Lincoln is further proof that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery)
1862
January 15 - A letter was written by General Thomas Sherman requesting the War Department send teachers to Port Royal, South Carolina to teach ex-slaves left on plantations under control of Union forces. Edward L. Pierce submitted a plan which subsequently began the Port Royal Experiment.
February 4 - The enrolling of free Blacks in the Confederate Army was debated in the Virginia House of Delegates. No action was taken.
April 3 - The U.S. Senate voted 29-14 to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia.
April 11 - The U.S. House of Representatives voted 93-39 to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia.
May 1 - General Benjamin Butler takes command of the Military Department of the Gulf in New Orleans, Louisiana.
May 9 - General David Hunter, Commander of the Department of the South (Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina), issued an Emancipation Proclamation freeing all slaves in those states and also authorized the arming of able-bodied ex-slaves. Shortly thereafter, he organized the 1st South Carolina Colored Regiment. The unit was subsequently disbanded except for one company.
May 13 - Robert Small sails the Confederate gunboat Planter from Charleston and delivers it to Union Navy.
May 19 - President Lincoln repudiates General David Hunter`s Emancipation Act of May 9 and disavows his order.
July 17 - Adoption of the Second Confiscation Act and Militia Act by the Administration which authorized emancipation and the employment of fugitive slave labor as weapons of war. The two Act declared “forever free” all captured and fugitive slaves of the Confederates and authorized the mobilization of Blacks in “any military or naval service for which they may be found competent.”
August 11 - General Ulysses S. Grant issued an order in Corinth, Mississippi utilizing the services of all fugitive slaves behind his lines.
August 14 - President Lincoln advocated the colonization of Blacks in Central America during a meeting with a delegation of free Blacks.
August 21 - Union Generals David Hunter and John Phelps denounced by Confederate President because of their wish to recruit slaves for the Union Army.
September 16 - Abolitionist Frederick Douglass rejected the proposal by President Lincoln to colonize free Blacks in Central America.
September 22 - The first draft of Emancipation Proclamation read to the cabinet by President Lincoln.
September 27 thru November 24 - The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Louisiana Native Guard Regiments (African Descent) organized and mustered into the Union Army in New Orleans.
October 10 - Confederate President Jefferson Davis requested the state of Virginia to draft 4500 Blacks to build fortifications around Richmond.
1863
January 1 - President Lincoln issues Emancipation Proclamation. The document was directed only to the states that seceded from the Union. Slaves states that remained with the Union was not affected.
January 12 - The Confederate Congress approved President Jefferson Davis’ proclamation of December 23, 1862.
January 20 - Governor John A. Andrew of Massachusetts was authorized by Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton to recruit and organize Black soldiers.
January 26 - The 1st South Carolina Volunteer Regiment (African Descent) engage the enemy at Township, Florida, shortly after being mustered in at Beaufort.
March 21 - Frederick Douglass issues a declaration, Men of Color, To Arms. He began to recruit troops, including his sons Charles and Lewis.
March 26 - The Secretary of War issued an order directing Adjutant General Lorenzo Thomas to organize black regiments in the Mississippi Valley.
1864
February 20 - Battle of Olustee (Florida). Heavy losses suffered by the Union forces that included the 54th Massachusetts Volunteers, the 8th and 35th United States Colored Infantry Regiments. The Union forces were defeated.
April 8 - Thirteenth Amendment passes the U.S. Senate by a vote of 38-6.
April 12 - Massacre of Union Soldiers, Black enlisted and White officers, at Fort Pillow, Tennessee.
June 15 - Thirteenth Amendment falls short of the required two-thirds majority in the U.S. House of Representatives by a vote of 96-66.
July 8 - President Lincoln announces support of the Thirteenth Amendment.
November 8 - President Lincoln re-elected.
November 30 - Battle of Honey Hill, South Carolina. Participating were the 54th and 55th Massachusetts Volunteers, the 32nd, 35th, and 102nd U.S. Colored Infantry Regiments.
December 3 - The 25th Army Corps organized. (The first and only army corps made up of all-Black infantry regiments.)
December 6 - President Lincoln in the Annual Message to Congress requested reconsideration of the Thirteenth Amendment.
1865
January 1 - The U.S. House of Representatives began to debate the Thirteenth Amendment.
January 31 - Thirteenth Amendment passes the House of Representatives by a vote of 119-56.
December 18 - Thirteenth Amendment ratified after approval by twenty-seven states. (Delaware, Kentucky, New Jersey, and Mississippi rejected the amendment.)
http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/cwchron.htm
The Doll’s House
Post#484
Quote:
`` every state in the US has its own flag and anthem, that doesnt require loads of money, will you and India allow this autonomy?``
Hindvi Sahib, I have to assume you must been busy, occupied elsewhere when you wrote the above.
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 6, 2004 07:52 am
HindviPost#484
Quote:
`` every state in the US has its own flag and anthem, that doesnt require loads of money, will you and India allow this autonomy?``
Hindvi Sahib, I have to assume you must been busy, occupied elsewhere when you wrote the above.
The Doll’s House
Post#476
Quote:
`` (you really need to read his speeches for about 10-15 years just before 1860). ``
I have seen/read some excerpts from his speeches which he gave in 50s. On purpose I did not quote from those as that can be taken as political rhetoric. Excerpts that I have read do not even remotely suggest that he really wanted to abolish slavery in US.
It is possible that he may have given speeches on abolition but I have not seen those. Now if I have not quoted those which show that he was not in favour of abolition because that can be taken as political stunt then that is applicable to those speeches also which talk about abolition. Anyway, that is not the issue at all.
There is plenty of direct evidence which tells us that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery. US Congress has made that clear in 1961, and President Lincoln himself too did that with his Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, as that was applicable only on the states which had seceded. And in between we do have other material also which points in the same direction. As it is, officially, US abolished slavery at the end of 1965 only, when Civil War was already won by the Union.
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 6, 2004 07:52 am
PardesiPost#476
Quote:
`` (you really need to read his speeches for about 10-15 years just before 1860). ``
I have seen/read some excerpts from his speeches which he gave in 50s. On purpose I did not quote from those as that can be taken as political rhetoric. Excerpts that I have read do not even remotely suggest that he really wanted to abolish slavery in US.
It is possible that he may have given speeches on abolition but I have not seen those. Now if I have not quoted those which show that he was not in favour of abolition because that can be taken as political stunt then that is applicable to those speeches also which talk about abolition. Anyway, that is not the issue at all.
There is plenty of direct evidence which tells us that Civil War was not about abolition of slavery. US Congress has made that clear in 1961, and President Lincoln himself too did that with his Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, as that was applicable only on the states which had seceded. And in between we do have other material also which points in the same direction. As it is, officially, US abolished slavery at the end of 1965 only, when Civil War was already won by the Union.
The Doll’s House
Following quote I have taken from an article, link of which was given in the debate that I referred to earlier...I have not checked as yet in US govt archives to confirm the following quote which supposedly has come from the US Congress itself..I also feel, that this quote should be authentic/correct as other Americans in that debate have not objected to it or cited something to refute it...
And this is as good as getting evidence from the proverbial horse`s mouth ..on slavery was not the reason/cause for civil war in US..
`` The US Congress supported Lincoln’s position in mid-1861 when it issued a resolution on the purpose of the war. The war was not being waged, Congress declared,
``. . . in any spirit of oppression, or for any purpose of conquest or subjugation, or purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or established institutions of those [Southern] states, but to defend and maintain the supremacy of the constitution, and to preserve the Union with all the dignity, equality and rights of the several states unimpaired.`` (W.A. Dunning, Essays on the Civil War and Reconstruction, p. 13)``
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 5, 2004 05:17 pm
HindviFollowing quote I have taken from an article, link of which was given in the debate that I referred to earlier...I have not checked as yet in US govt archives to confirm the following quote which supposedly has come from the US Congress itself..I also feel, that this quote should be authentic/correct as other Americans in that debate have not objected to it or cited something to refute it...
And this is as good as getting evidence from the proverbial horse`s mouth ..on slavery was not the reason/cause for civil war in US..
`` The US Congress supported Lincoln’s position in mid-1861 when it issued a resolution on the purpose of the war. The war was not being waged, Congress declared,
``. . . in any spirit of oppression, or for any purpose of conquest or subjugation, or purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or established institutions of those [Southern] states, but to defend and maintain the supremacy of the constitution, and to preserve the Union with all the dignity, equality and rights of the several states unimpaired.`` (W.A. Dunning, Essays on the Civil War and Reconstruction, p. 13)``
The Doll’s House
Post#469
Quote:
`` I hope you understand the difference between a fundamentalist organisation and an ordinary militant. JKLF viewed from the Indian perspective could be called a terrorist organisation but how is it fundamentalist?``
And I hope, you understand the difference between a militant and terrorist. :) Even a small child can have militant attitude, and parents/teachers/elders do say that when describing certain acts of a child or children. Hardly ever the word `terrorist` is used. So let us call JKLF organisation with its right and proper name..and that is, terrorist organisation. Now, are you saying that terrorists cannot be fundamentalists?
Quote:
`` And are you saying Rajsingh that slavery continued to exist in the northern states after the civil war? i.e. it was only abolished in the south? ``
I have said, at the time of Emancipiation Proclamation, which was in 1963, many northern states had slaves and recognised slavery. And civil war was still going on, at that time.
Your question is different. You are asking me if slavery continued to exist in northern states ``After`` the civil war.
This was not even the issue. For, we were talking about the causes of civil war and I had shown that when so called war on slavery was declared, many northern states of the Union did have slaves and recognised slavery too. So abolition of slavery as cause of civil war does not hold much water.
Second, now that you have asked, let me respond to that part also. I am saying this from memory only..if need arise, will check and reconfirm ..
I think it was abolished in 1865, and I think, civil war had been won by then by the Union.
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 5, 2004 05:15 pm
HindviPost#469
Quote:
`` I hope you understand the difference between a fundamentalist organisation and an ordinary militant. JKLF viewed from the Indian perspective could be called a terrorist organisation but how is it fundamentalist?``
And I hope, you understand the difference between a militant and terrorist. :) Even a small child can have militant attitude, and parents/teachers/elders do say that when describing certain acts of a child or children. Hardly ever the word `terrorist` is used. So let us call JKLF organisation with its right and proper name..and that is, terrorist organisation. Now, are you saying that terrorists cannot be fundamentalists?
Quote:
`` And are you saying Rajsingh that slavery continued to exist in the northern states after the civil war? i.e. it was only abolished in the south? ``
I have said, at the time of Emancipiation Proclamation, which was in 1963, many northern states had slaves and recognised slavery. And civil war was still going on, at that time.
Your question is different. You are asking me if slavery continued to exist in northern states ``After`` the civil war.
This was not even the issue. For, we were talking about the causes of civil war and I had shown that when so called war on slavery was declared, many northern states of the Union did have slaves and recognised slavery too. So abolition of slavery as cause of civil war does not hold much water.
Second, now that you have asked, let me respond to that part also. I am saying this from memory only..if need arise, will check and reconfirm ..
I think it was abolished in 1865, and I think, civil war had been won by then by the Union.
The Doll’s House
Tell me/us, where is abolishment of slavery mentioned in this article presented by/in US Congress...
``Article Thirteen.
``No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.``
APPROVED, March 2, 1861.
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 5, 2004 05:15 pm
HindviTell me/us, where is abolishment of slavery mentioned in this article presented by/in US Congress...
``Article Thirteen.
``No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.``
APPROVED, March 2, 1861.
The Doll’s House
Slavery was abolished in December 1865, as confirmed from the following..that means, while civil war was going on, slavery was not abolished and it could not have been the real cause of civil war..Recall, Emancipiation Proclamation was about Confedrate states and not for the whole of United States..
Quote:
December 18 Ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution announced by the Secretary of State; the amendment abolishes slavery throughout the United States
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 5, 2004 05:15 pm
HindviSlavery was abolished in December 1865, as confirmed from the following..that means, while civil war was going on, slavery was not abolished and it could not have been the real cause of civil war..Recall, Emancipiation Proclamation was about Confedrate states and not for the whole of United States..
Quote:
December 18 Ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution announced by the Secretary of State; the amendment abolishes slavery throughout the United States
The Doll’s House
Sorry, your name got misspelt in post 470.
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 5, 2004 05:15 pm
PardesiSorry, your name got misspelt in post 470.
The Doll’s House
Post#464
It appears, civil war of US was avoidable only if President Lincoln did not want to retain/keep/maintain the territorial integrity of US of that time, and not make Center more strong.
Southern states or states which went ahead with secession, had done that peacefully. Given that, if civil war was not about Union then what else could be there? Where is slavery in this, as a real cause for civil war? (rhetorical questions...)
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 5, 2004 02:09 pm
ParedesiPost#464
It appears, civil war of US was avoidable only if President Lincoln did not want to retain/keep/maintain the territorial integrity of US of that time, and not make Center more strong.
Southern states or states which went ahead with secession, had done that peacefully. Given that, if civil war was not about Union then what else could be there? Where is slavery in this, as a real cause for civil war? (rhetorical questions...)
The Doll’s House
Here is a quote from a debate which I referred to earlier..and have visited there today, after long time...and this one consists of opinion too..
July 25, 1861
1861 Congress passes Crittenden-Johnson Resolution
The Crittenden-Johnson Resolution passes, declaring that the war is being waged for the reunion of the states and not to interfere with the institutions of the South, namely slavery.
The measure was important in keeping the pivotal states of Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland in the Union.
This resolution should not be confused with the Crittenden Compromise—a plan circulated after the Southern states began seceding from the Union that proposed to protect slavery as an enticement to keep the Southern states from leaving—which was defeated in Congress. At the beginning of the war, many Northerners supported a war for to keep the Union together, but had no interest in advancing the cause of abolition. The Crittenden-Johnson plan was passed in 1861 to distinguish the issue of emancipation from the war`s purpose.
The common denominator of the two plans was Senator John Crittenden from Kentucky. Crittenden carried the torch of compromise borne so ably by another Kentucky senator, Henry Clay, who brokered such important deals as the Missouri Compromise of 1820 and the Compromise of 1850 to keep the nation together. Clay died in 1852, but Crittenden carried on the spirit befitting the representative of a state deeply divided over the issue of slavery.
Although the measure was passed in Congress, it meant little when, just two weeks later, President Lincoln signed a confiscation act, allowing for the seizure of property—including slaves—from rebellious citizens. Still, for the first year and a half of the Civil War, reunification of the United States was the official goal of the North. It was not until Lincoln`s Emancipation Proclamation of September 1863 that slavery became a goal.
Posted by
rajsinghi1
Oct 5, 2004 02:09 pm
HindviHere is a quote from a debate which I referred to earlier..and have visited there today, after long time...and this one consists of opinion too..
July 25, 1861
1861 Congress passes Crittenden-Johnson Resolution
The Crittenden-Johnson Resolution passes, declaring that the war is being waged for the reunion of the states and not to interfere with the institutions of the South, namely slavery.
The measure was important in keeping the pivotal states of Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland in the Union.
This resolution should not be confused with the Crittenden Compromise—a plan circulated after the Southern states began seceding from the Union that proposed to protect slavery as an enticement to keep the Southern states from leaving—which was defeated in Congress. At the beginning of the war, many Northerners supported a war for to keep the Union together, but had no interest in advancing the cause of abolition. The Crittenden-Johnson plan was passed in 1861 to distinguish the issue of emancipation from the war`s purpose.
The common denominator of the two plans was Senator John Crittenden from Kentucky. Crittenden carried the torch of compromise borne so ably by another Kentucky senator, Henry Clay, who brokered such important deals as the Missouri Compromise of 1820 and the Compromise of 1850 to keep the nation together. Clay died in 1852, but Crittenden carried on the spirit befitting the representative of a state deeply divided over the issue of slavery.
Although the measure was passed in Congress, it meant little when, just two weeks later, President Lincoln signed a confiscation act, allowing for the seizure of property—including slaves—from rebellious citizens. Still, for the first year and a half of the Civil War, reunification of the United States was the official goal of the North. It was not until Lincoln`s Emancipation Proclamation of September 1863 that slavery became a goal.
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