The Plan To Topple Pakistan Military Insightful . I sense the urgency. Most people do not have your insight. May Allah have mercy on our people.

Here is something that will really overwhelm you: WHAT IF things are planned 10+ years in advance. What if things are planned decades in advance?

You are right about Indians in high policy related positions in the US. It is due to decades of PHDs accumulated by Indians in both Russia/England and the US. Recall Russia gave India books in 1954 as aid. That is a greater aid than F-16s you cannot fly without parts.
Stop looking to China look to Russia (India will be tweeked and forced to riot as in 1950s but ignore it).

You are wrong about knowing India OR afghanistan. Pakistanis think they know India. If you knew India you would not be watching their movies and listening to their songs.

I doubt if you know Afghanistan either or even yourselves. That is the curse of the ignorant. But you are getting there.

Musharraf should not have shed blood in the red mosque incident. Gas them to unconsciousness or fire tranquilizers at them but we ought not to have shed the blood of those in the Lal masjid. We should still be careful and respectful of our religious men and women.

May Allah help our people and our armed forces. I recommend going into the same self imposed sanction oriented mode as Iran under the Ayatollahs and Japan in the 1600s. Indeed an Islamic Pakistan is more important than the alternatives we are encountering.

We should tackle news of taliban and drug trade + we should tell the Afghans to be friendly with us or we stop assisting the anti - taliban push. We should try enact a united Pakistan-Afghanistan-Iran-Turkey vision.

Current Turkish movement in "Kurdistan" is a problem here. We need to reduce such differences between us.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? It is a shame that a fellow who graduated with a PHD from MIT is merely the President of a university in Pakistan. Usually MIT post grads are running corporations in the Cambridge/Bay area.

Is Dr. Hoodbhoy`s sole contribution going to be his polemics against Islam? And Islam in the era of Muslims who don`t even know what is in their books (for they read the Quran but do not understand a word of it).

A physicist from MIT can he make an aeroplane for Pakistan and sell it? maybe that is too ambitious ... maybe a train? not a train either? how about a motorcycle ? not even that how about a cycle? how about watch? I guess even that is not possible either right. What will we do in 10 years` time with nukes when we are poorer and hungrier than bangladesh?

Is the answer to overthrow Islam? Dr. Hoodhbhoy are you doing a service to the Hoodbhoy`s of Pakistan? I realize the ``bhoys`` are a little upset with Islam but they usually confined it to private circles. Our enemies have taken you and turned you to combat an ``idea`` - whereas you could have been an asset to Pakistan. So Russia helped out India to the extent that today India and China are way ahead- would you say that is the inheritence of an education at the Tech?

What did they do to you at MIT Sir? Or rather what did you do to yourself? What are we Sir? We are poor and ignorant and abandoned and forsaken by God. How about raising your pen against cancer or AIDS or ugliness or disease? How about a fusion bomb ? or even a Hydrogen one ? how about a nuclear sub? But I forgot those who can`t do teach.

If you are going to use an education at the tech to merely teach people then we could have gotten anyone to regurgitate material - summarize papers or come up with minor improvements on themes (people who can chew away at problems are a dime a dozen). How about enterprise Sir? Have you explored the Greek texts which the Mutazilites wished to read (the very same you sided with)? Surely you must have read the Greek texts which they wished to share with the rest of us? I doubt you have read many - but I think you ought to. Not because they are bad but because they are eye opening and will help Pakistan and ``Muslims``.

May Allah guide us all Sir.

What Drives Men and Women of Indian Subcontinent to Infidelity? Chowk Staff:

1) This article is heavily edited. So much so that the meaning of what I was trying to communicate has been lost and it comes across as a pessimistic commentary on the current state of affairs. (The original version does not contain any masala either - just for those who are base enough to demand it. If you are Muslims you would be ashamed of yourselves and if you are not then: how appropriate to associate a deplorable cultural attribute with base desires).
2) Please replace it with the original article or remove it from your website alltogether.
2.1) Where are all the other articles I wrote under the nom de plume of A. Shiraz?
3) Summary of what I was trying to say: something about the lifestyles of present day Muslims (who are in some sort of transition) lends them to this social evil that is hard to quantify but is often under the radar and surreptitous by its nature. Ref. to English rectitude and you will discover that when Muslims were pious like the English were in their heydey. This rectitude and virtue often has varying forces acting upon it :
- choices made due to external societal conditions: tyranny, democracy etc.
- choices made due to internal conditions : a desire to lead a moral and virtuous life leading to changes in external conditions and choices made by people (e.g. Puritans with a desire for piety departing to start anew on a British colony).

Idolizing the Koran I hope chowk staff will edit the final paper with the right spelling of the Quran (as understood by most Muslims today) I have none to blame but myself (the MS Word dictionary contains Koran so I carelessly used that spelling). Allah knows that I had no malicious intent and I hope he will forgive me.

Idolizing the Quran

Idolatry arises from an exaggerated respect translating into a misguided religious zeal. This adoration or zeal is directed towards an entity other than God. Muslims suspect Christians were guilty of this crime when they elevated a Prophet to the status of a God. The Hindus are accused of engaging in such idol worship to the promiscuous point that today they have innumerable Gods. Shiite Muslims are accused of idolatry when they elevate the status of Ali to an unusual degree. But there is an idolization common to most Muslims: idolizing the Quran.

Words printed on paper are elevated to such a height that they are folded into “Tawiz” and hung around the believers to protect them from disease and the ‘evil eye’. Such are the abnormal expectations attached to the printed Quran that believers often dissolve it in water and drink it as medicine. Unfortunately it is often the case that the wearer and the one who prepares this ‘holy paper’ or ‘medicine’ are quite often unaware of the meaning of the words.

Other examples of this exaggerated respect as demonstrated by some is kissing the Quran, pressing it against one’s eyes, avoiding pointing one’s feet towards it and sitting below the position of the book. Lastly an act I often found irrational is the elaborate measures taken to burn or discard all Arabic words that look even remotely ornate or Quran like.

It is not like the scholars of Islam have been ignorant of such idolatry. Many shake their heads over it, shrug their shoulders and exclaim with consternation and blame it in on the times. Others have waged righteous war against all idolatry. Illustration of such valiant acts is their prohibition of approaching the Prophet’s tomb. This was enacted to prohibit people from praying at the tomb, kissing the tomb and to prevent tying threads and prayer requests.

Another desperate action is the bulldozing of “Jannatul Baqi” (a graveyard holding the greatest martyrs and saints of Islam) to prevent people from kissing tombstones or stealing the sand for purposes of selling them as holy relics and remedies.

Men may say, ‘but what is the harm in such acts of devotion?’ Besides the fact that this is idolatry and therefore a sin, historically Muslims have suffered gravely because they have elevated their Holy Book to irrational heights.

Case in point is the day when a prototype of the Gutenberg press was presented to the Caliph of Turkey for purposes of printing the Quran. The Gutenberg press as we all know is responsible for the resurgence of Europe from the Dark Ages more than any other invention. When such an opportunity was presented to Muslims before it ever made an impression in Europe the scribes of the Quran rejected this machine and denounced it as an “instrument of the devil”.

The rationale of the scribes was that since the printing press did not perform ablution before ‘writing’ the Quran it was therefore unfit but moreover it was devilish for printing the Quran without performing an ablution.

One sees countless more side affects of such adoration with the riots and public unrest that erupts throughout the Islamic world. Most recently there was the incident of a village Doctor in Pakistan who was lynched because someone accused him of throwing a page of the Holy Book in the sewers. After the lynching the crowd went about destroying public infrastructure, looting shops and vandalizing taxpayer-sponsored property.

Remember idolatry arises not from hatred but an extreme of adoration and devotion. It is when you begin to love a human being more than you love God that you begin to commit idolatry. It is when you begin to love money more than God that you commit idolatry. It is when you begin to associate irrational zeal and passion to an aspect of religion or a religious icon is when you begin to commit a sin. It is when you misplace the source of your salvation be it money, the saints, books or the Prophet’s family when you begin to elevate something to the status of a God.

Besides it being a sin irrational zeal is a weakness that your foes will most certainly exploit. You have already seen evidence of self-destructive behavior amongst Muslims when a few socialists drew a picture of a pig and wrote “Mohammad” underneath. The resulting youth riots destroyed the fledgling and meager economy of that region. If you provide sensitive areas and “buttons” that are rooted in an unnecessary reverence your foes will most gladly press it and then watch with glee as you dance towards your destruction. Most importantly it is very easy for your foes to set you against your friends if you provide the world with simple interfaces into your psychology.

What then is the solution and what is the way forward?

As it is the Quran might as well be placed on an altar and worshipped or placed in a museum and admired from afar because few Muslims bother to understand it. I advocate reading the Quran and devouring it, use it like a Japanese citizen employs his English dictionary – let the pages get dog eared, let the cover become tattered, carry it everywhere and read it whenever you get the chance, be it at a bus stop or an airport terminal.

Currently Muslims bathe before touching the Quran, women undergoing their menses are not allowed to touch the book and if you accidentally break wind or have to rush to the bathroom then you must bathe all over again before touching the Quran. These are the symptoms of a reluctant student not the ways of a passionate seeker of revelation. Whoever has taught you these ways only wishes to formalize and ritualize your approach to a message that runs through your veins. Do not let them distance you from your salvation!

Such is the fear amongst Muslims of the Quran that they are afraid of attempting to understand it on their own lest they are misled. They feel that if they must understand the Quran they must only do so through the help of the oft-controlling scholars and oft corrupt Imams of the Islamic world. Because they fail to take the initiative and explore the wonders of the Quran on their own they have come to the point where all understanding trickles down from a few blind (or partially blind) men. If you are going to be misled by reading the Quran you will be misled whether you go through an Imam or the Shaikh of the Harimain Sharifain. Why wait then for an Imam to lead you to what is the most important thing in your life? Pick up and read the book. Then honor the message not the papyrus, not the binding, not the elaborate illustration but the message for it will be your understanding of the message which will save you not your elaborate displays of devotion.

Muslims need to understand that the meaning of the words in the Quran is more important than the words printed on paper. The understanding of the Quran is more important than reciting the Quran with elaborate ululations (recited often without understanding). The translation of the Quran is of greater importance than memorizing words one does not comprehend.

Perhaps of paramount importance is translating the Quran into the local dialects of the Islamic world because the message of the Quran should be transmitted and understood by everyone from the native Arabic speaker to the most pathetic farm boy in the Indus valley. This is precisely what Luther and William Tyndale envisioned for Europe and this is the secret to Europe’s resurgence. Christians, particularly the Protestant Christians read their Bible, understand it and discuss it with their fellow believers. They carry their Bibles as they carry their wallet, close to their hearts an ever-ready savior.

A hurdle to understanding the Quran is its arcane Arabic. Some may argue that it’s better for people to learn Arabic rather than corrupting the Quran by translating it into a native dialect. The truth is that there is no end to claiming that “translating the Quran will corrupt its meaning”. God has so sealed the hearts of Muslims that they refuse to understand the Quran, even in Arabic. For it is an oft-heard claim of Arab speakers that they don’t understand the Quran because the language is ancient and therefore beyond comprehension. If this is the case then the Islamic world has lost the message of the Quran even for the native Arab speaker.

But even if we were all one billion of us to learn ancient Arabic as spoken in the dialect of the tribe of Quraish, instituting Arabic as the language of the Islamic world also poses the threat of squashing all innovation and creativity and personal respect, identity and pride of all the nations under Islam from the Bengali to the Turk.

When the words of the Quran become alive for her people, nay when the words come alive for all people then Muslims may expect a revitalization of their fortunes and a return to the glory days of the Companions of the Prophet Mohammad. Moreover when Muslims dare to understand not just the Quran but the Torah and the Bible they will most certainly regain what they seem to have lost and cannot attain. May we all attain our heavens!

Church vs Mosque The Attack On Chrisitianity

I am noticing a lot of the fanatics turning their attention to attacking Christians which leads me to the feeling that this article really worked! I will have these people know that I grew up on more virulent anti-christian anti-semitic propaganda than anything you fundamentalists disguised as socialists can pull out.

And look at me today!

There is no stopping the truth for the truth will set you free!


Regarding Mr. Sattar

``Shiraz dude … a few rambling, off-topic thoughts …"#136 by sattar2 on September 14, 2004 5:13pm PT

I have always wanted to write like that in public! unfotunately the abuse one recieves by simply writing the bland stuff is enough to cause one to attempt a more ``subtle`` approach to informing my beloved dwellers of the Land of the Pure (thank goodness! never apprecited it before but what a beautiful name it is and what a great destiny our people have in front of them!).

Wow! I am honored to have someone like you write. And these are not just words but consolation in words that could have only been transmitted from outer space!

I am indifferent to Sinatra (I think that is worse than despising a person, I think) and though there was a time when I admired and adored Wilde I have now begun to observe with great alarm that he Wilde lived my life a few hundred years ago (with the exception of that wit thing topped with that homosexuality).

Why have I not read your responses before ? I guess it takes a crucifixion to galvanize and ferret out the cool Pakistanis!

As for looks department, there is so much neurosis there that it will take me a few years to expurgate most of them.

More commentary and analysis and interpretation sir! both you and HamidM are just fabulous characters :)

Church vs Mosque Shia Baiting

#84 by MQMPower on September 10, 2004 6:19am PT

There are Shia haters abundant in Pakistan and on Chowk but that is the case with most Sunni Muslims. It is good to have you come here and talk about the Shiite faith, however do remember that Sunnis will be the first to subvert and destroy your people as they have done historically and they continue to do today in Sunni Islamic Pakistan.

The Stink That Attracts Ex Cons To Islam
Do you realize that you could have taken a whole new angle by fanning the disturbingly numerous child abuse scandals that the Catholic Church has faced in the recent years #38 by seinfeld on September 8, 2004 11:38am PT

In case you could not tell this is not about a Catholic church. I criticize the Catholic Church as much as if not more than Islam.

While you have your own take on the stink that you sensed in the mosques that you have been to, that “stink” is exactly what has attracted many people towards Islam.#38 by seinfeld on September 8, 2004 11:38am PT

You have to be kidding me! but this is so true! In prisons white felons go for Nazism and White Supremacist groups while Black criminals go for Islam. If it ain`t the stench that attracts them to Islam, I don`t know what it is.

However there are some of us who are educated, civilized and upright, law abiding citizens who just happened to be born into Islam. We were not given an option really. It is to those people that I say ``Go out and find your heaven, explore! be brave! You are intelligent and you are worth it!``

Meanwhile you and your fundamentalist friends may feel free to enjoy each others` stink. If you can`t get enough of it you may go the Gyms and smell other people`s jocks (get high on spirituality, Islamic style!) but do remember to watch out for those body builders, if they catch you smelling their soiled underwear you are going to wish the Americans were kicking your arse again. But while you are at it close the windows of your dens of terrorism, male chauvinism and homosexuality which you call your houses of worship.

May moderate Muslims be free of such associations. May moderate Muslims be free of whatever image the mosque has in the rest of the world.

Its the Quality NOT the Quantity
Anyway, may be we should forgive that stinky guy in the mosque. Being the hourly-rate kind of a guy that he is, chances are that he didn’t have the time and resources to “drive” home and take a shower for the three prayer times that fell during his long and hard work-day digging the ditch.#38 by seinfeld on September 8, 2004 11:38am PT

In essence, all the relatively poor people, sweating but trying to earn a living. Let us assume that during their work, they hear the call for prayer. What do you suggest they do? With no public baths in sight in Pakistan, should they go, miles way to their home to take a bath first? What if no bathing facilities are available in the mosque and all they can do, is perform their required and refreshing wudu? What do you suggest then? #96 by ELUSIVE on September 10, 2004 8:50pm PT


What is better, to show up to greet your God sweating and smelling of urine or to show up in a state of cleanliness?

The frequency of Islamic prayers is such that I am amazed Muslims get the time to go to the bathroom and finish their daily business. If such people heard the prayer call in the middle of their business I bet you would be ok if they marched into the mosque soiled and stinking?

That is exactly the condition of atleast 1 in 15 Muslim men who show up at the mosques - unless you are near a Pathan colony then the percentage of soiled and stinking men shoots up astronomically.

Praying at a mosque is a communal experience. You are standing shoulder to shoulder with another human being. When you raise your arms you are exposing your armpits in all its deodrant-less glory! When you are bending over and your Kameez and Shalwar flutters you are fluttering the contents of your genitalia in plain view of people behind you who are bending straight into the line of sight of your genitalia.

If you must pray 5 times a day and you stink, can you not do it in private? Must you flaunt your piety and your unhygenic condition in front of 500 other innocent, washed and clean people? Would you rather not pray to your God in a condition of good quality rather than unclean and copiously stinking quantity?

But the trouble is you cannot do that. Why? because the Imams and the Mullahs will not let you do that. Why? Because the Imam would rather have a stinking, mindless laborer firing the guns for his cause than some educated, well dressed and clean shaven man. The clean shaven worldly man would find it easier to pay the Chanda (alms) when there is a crazed bearded fanatic threatening to blow himself up at his children`s schools.

Its not like the Imams and Mullahs don`t try to recruit intelligent people but the civilized and educated people rarely have time to waste on 5 times prayers.

But even absentee Muslims are good news for Mullahs because the more you miss the prayers the more Mullahs can make you feel guilty about it and the more money they can extort from you.

``Brother, so how many prayers you did Qadha? How many prayers you missed? You would rather be a doctor than pray five times a day``.

The poor mindless Muslim Doctor is ofcourse thinking ``Yes, maybe I am bad! so what if I saved the life of 50 people that day, I missed my prayers man! maybe I should give all my salary to the Islamic Jihad!`` You are being taken for a ride and your degrees are worthless in the face of this immense brainwashing!

But if you are a rational and clear headed man with good western education in you, you will say ``There is a time for everything and TOO MUCH of anything is bad! so I will go maybe once a week or even once a year but when I go I wish for quality of experience , and I shall not whore away my spirituality for cheap, two minute prayers at rapid fire frequencies``.

What effect do 5 times prayers have on Muslims? It only solidifies their mental brainwashing but the spiritual experience is deadened and cheapened because Muslims start to pray like ``Murghas`` (Cocks and Hens) who do things mindlessly and mechanically and quickly as if they have to get rid of a task and get back to their work.

Muslims when they are praying act is if they are not in the presance of God but praying by a timer. Why will they not pray in a staccato rapid fire way? When you cheapen the experience of appearing before God it shows in your actions. You may boast that you pray five times a day but its a mindless ritual to you and most Muslims (With the exception of Osama Bin Ladin and look where 5 times a day has gotten him!) How many of you can FEEL the experience of praying at 5 in the morning (IF you can even get up in the morning)? How many of you can really connect with your God while you rattle off words in a language you don`t even understand? Do you realize that praying is NOT a drill or an obligation.

Instead you make excuses on behalf of people who stink and have poor hygiene! Is there no end to your excuses? You would rather dive into a pile of shi_te than have the courage to explore and see what else is out there, right?

Well go ahead and meet your stinking end.

Church vs Mosque Culture Is NOT Your Race

In your fancy of the English, the Protestant ethic, Capitalism and of course westernization, you have unfortunately forgotten your very roots. .. One does not become white, if they paint their faces white. One does not become protestant by a singular or a few visits to a church.#121 by ELUSIVE on September 13, 2004 1:40pm PT

One may not change their race (atleast until medical science advances enough to allow us to do that) but one may change one`s culture.

You can speak English even if you have never seen England. You may adopt the Protestant Ethic (as the South Koreans have) even if you are unrelated to Martin Luther or King Henry VIII. One may be a Capitalist even if one is born into a ``spiritual`` Hindu family. One may become westernized even if one is born and raised in Pakistan.

People who are ``ethno centric`` and who claim that adopting western ideals of freedom, equality and justice is ``forgetting ones roots/identity/race`` are in my opinion impeding the progress of their own people. They are identifying values that are good and noble with ``whiteness`` . It is racist to identify words like ``We the people consider all people are created equal`` as something white and un-Pakistani or un-Brown. It is racist to say that learning English or ``western science`` is Un Islamic or un-Brown (like the people who ridiculed Sir Syed Ahmed Khan). It is racist to say that Pakistanis cannot be Protestants or Capitalists. It is wrong to say that Pakistanis cannot aspire to the values that the Swedes or the British hold dear.

Muslims claim ``Islam about Equality brother poor man pray shoulder to shoulder with rich man`` but they forget the forgotten and huddled masses of suffering women who are never there by the side of their men when praying. Your claims and your lies will not stand in front of those who have seen that there is something better out there! That is why I urge all of you to be brave and shrug all those fears implanted in you of Christians and Jews.

Be brave and see how Protestants in England and America live and eat and behave and you will astonished! You will see why Christians and Protestants are foremost in the world! You will see why God has blessed them and why Muslims live under this curse ... be brave! go out there and explore with a open and loving heart... what have you got to lose ? a few brown friends who think its ``un Islamic`` to hold the hands of a woman but perfectly Ok to hold the hand of a member of your own gender? Forget the haters!

Church vs Mosque Also, only learned men and women should be allowed to lead the prayers. The ones who look like a daku or a cave-man ought to be discouraged. Those imams and preachers are a definite risk to Islam. #103 by ZahraJ on September 11, 2004 2:04pm PT

I think this should be put up as ``qoute of the day``. I was laughing hard as I reached the ``daku`` part of the comment.

We have women capable of great wonder and sweetness in our nation. If only we would appreciate them like the Englishman respects, defers and appreciates women.

A VISION

After reading your posts I am becoming increasingly convinced that Pakistanis have noble hearts and if only your noble hearts will go forth with courage and explore what else is out there you will be happier. You don`t have to put up with anything!

If Islam annoys and saddens you and your fellow Muslims behave like Janitors, you don`t have to put up with them. Explore and reach out and find a community that meets your standard. Don`t end up with people simply because they are welcoming but find people whose values coincide with yours.

My dear Pakistanis, I envision a day when we will all collectively be westernized and become upholders of the Protestant ethic and Capitalism. We will join the first world as men and women who will put the Arabs, Muslims, Catholics, Jews and the Hindus to shame.

We will embrace the North Western European ideals, the lessons of the reformation, the laws of England, the constitution of the US, the French Rights Of Man, the spirit of the Scandinanvians, the Saxons and the Anglo Americans. We will rejoice in English and English customs and make it our own as we have begun to do today. We will take the values of the Anglo Protestants uncorrupted by French Catholic decadence and we will embrace the Protestant work ethic and we shall join the ranks of the first world!

We will be steadfast allies of the noble British and the Americans and the Europeans and we will be a city on the hill that the Persians, Afghans, Arabs, Hindus, Chinese and Russians will look up to and envy. And then we will tell them all: we chose good values and we befriended the noble and we had the courage to westernize because westernization is a virtue.

Church vs Mosque ``music is not haram ``#92 by URUS on September 10, 2004 2:47pm PT

I guess this means that we are going to see a musical instrument in a Mosque anytime now?

None have witnessed a musical instrument in a mosque for the past 1400 years but who knows, it might happen, right?

``nasha of anything is haram ``

Are you sure? I am certain there will be some Muslim who will disagree with you there.

After all Islam is willing to prostitute itself into drinking bhang and there are people who delude themselves and others into believing that such behavior is Islamic and actually ask me to consider such Mosques as alternatives. The strange thing is these Muslims act as if this Bhang drinking Islam is the ``norm`` and the mosques which don`t serve Bhang as ``extremist`` and ``very rare``.

So if there is a ``Sufi mosque`` then why not a special mosque for those of us who feel that ``true`` Islam considers music to be ``not haram``?

I ran into a ``Gay Mosque`` recently , these guys even have a website! so those of us who want to find arguments to defend this faith can now say ``Islam is not homophobic`` ...

What will we have next? perhaps a mosque that upholds the oft repeated punchline ``Islam is for peace``?

Sarcasm aside, consider this: honesty.

If you dishonestly recast Islam in a western light and then try to pass it off as Islam you delude yourself and other innocent people and prolong the conflict between the religions.

If you like something about the west: for example their music, embarce music rather than try to twist your own religion into a western mold. Ofcourse the ``sellers`` of Islam will do everything and anything to market their religion but you only have to open your eyes to see that these are not ``reformers`` or ``revisionists`` or those who do ``ijtihad`` but these are slick oil salespeople who merely want more converts to brainwash and control because their consumer base is dying and sick or leaving in hordes.

There are some cultures that value freedom, love, equality and justice. There are other cultures that scorn freedom, love, equality and justice. Islam belongs to a culture that does NOT value freedom (Islam means submission), does NOT stand for love (its shirk to love), nor equality (just look at your mosques segregated by gender) nor does Islam stand for justice (half witness anyone?).

Why force everyone to believe it to be otherwise?

You are prolonging your miseries and the miseries of the dwellers of this earth. The intelligent and the brave will see it and see what else is out there and embrace the best of whatever is out there WITHOUT trying to recast or lie or market their religion as something OTHER than what it really is.

When you try to twist Islam out of shape you anger the fanatics who then come after the ``westerners`` and you guys with a greater vengeance. Why not leave the fundamentalists to their fate and their religion and join the rest of us? Wouldn`t that be easier than forcing everyone to be like everyone else? Islam is simply incompatible with the west!

Church vs Mosque ``In your earlier posts in this thread you have spoken on chivalry and being a gentleman which was quite nice, especially coming from a desi. However you just tarnished your image by saying this about Faiza... ``Really I don`t even find that woman attractive.`` ``#90 by doublec on September 10, 2004 12:20pm PT


Main Entry: chiv·al·rous
Pronunciation: `shi-v&l-r&s
Function: adjective
1 : VALIANT
3 a : marked by honor, generosity, and courtesy b : marked by gracious courtesy and high-minded consideration especially to women

I said it in the spirit of not giving her or anyone the wrong idea. It is more courteous to speak the truth than to lead someone on, in my book. So I would rather just tell them how I truly feel about them. I think that is being gentlemanly in my book.

Church vs Mosque ``Solitude: The state or quality of being alone or remote from others `` #81 by Jibbe on September 9, 2004 10:03pm PT

I was under the impression that solitude was a good kind of dissociation from negative people for example you may search for solitude in places like so:



I thought it was a voluntary aloofness akin to the one enjoyed by philosophers and Kings. I used solitude as a nick name to encourage Pakistanis to break away from the peer pressure / familial pressure and societal pressure they suffer from. It was also inspired by Marquez and his 100 years of Solitude.

Thanks for pointing it out, I guess its time for a nick name change. I consider myself quite social as you can probably tell from the picture. I just don`t enjoy myself around a certain brand of Pakistanis (most likely your kind).

Mr. Jibbe, you are not very nice in your post and you make assertions and once again confine yourself to personal attacks. I implore you, please stick to arguing what is presented infront of you : the comparison between churches and mosques. If you can`t do that don`t attack people, go into their personal history or make them feel bad. This is not the ``Truck Stand`` (or Truck Adda) this is a place for civil discourse. I can talk about my own personal history and make myself vulnerable in front of all because I hope to glean morals from them and to inform people.

As for those who find me attractive, thank you! It takes a beautiful people to see beauty in others. Thanks all for your wonderful emails of support.

About Pakistani Women

I take back what I said about Pakistani Muslim women, I think Pakistani Muslim women have been VERY kind towards me! I think the fault is in me. I have been unable to see their love or their beauty and instead I pretend like they don`t like me or they are weird. So they may be just a little overwhelmed by their families and a little neurotic, but who isn`t? I think I try to convince myself that such women don`t like me because really deep down inside I would like to be with a blonde, but who wouldn`t?

Instead of admitting that I would rather be with a blonde Swede than a beautiful Pakistani woman I pretend like Pakistani women don`t find me attractive. Pakistani girls have been very tolerant and very indulgent of me :) Thank you!

In the end I have faith that love can conquer all.

Now back to how much mosques stink! and how the stench arises from the fact that our women are not allowed to spruce it up or put some febreeze in them.

(for those who haven`t heard of febreeze it is supposed to neutralize the stale mouthed smell emanating from the male worshippers which the Prophet referred to as ``like perfume for Allah``; yes maybe for Allah but everone else doesn`t think its prefume...)

Athar Shiraz