Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan Trying to assist dost-mitter here:

Muslims are allowed to have infidel women as their property and have sex with them regardless of their (or anyone`s) consent. Obviously, a lost war doesn`t change the minds of those women and the act will be a rape of more enormous proportions. Poeple denying this common sense thesis are free to keeping buying tickets for heaven.

abbaszaidi:

Do you think that america evolved through a dictatorship and it has only recently acquired the technology of democracy from Microsoft?

Religion is no doubt a positive force considering the circumstances which lead it`s birth. But now, it is being compared with the standards of modren civilized man`s own which it cannot compete. This is why there are people criticizing religion because relatively speaking, it has become a slightly evil being. Plus, once of of it`s trance, one can easily figure out that in essense, it is a fraud. Why not protest against a generations old fraud?

Twenty Years After Gill sahib,

A lot of people on this group, like me are still deficient in real sceintific understanding of the stuff you talk about. Even though we have studied physics untill our high-school but we lack some real understanding of more advanced stuff. May be you can, with your knowledge bridge the gap with a series of articles titled something like `ultra modren physics for dummies`. That will be a great thing for us ignorants.

Thus Fare Fake Democracies Re: # 38 SR, that was one good piece of pattren finding. This new born corporate being is really intimidating..

Interestingly, this is a lifeform drastically different from previous evolutionary products. This one lives as a union of interests of a large group of people. Doesn`t have a body but sure has a vicous soul. Dies of same causes as poeple (natural selection) but doesn`t abide by the natural age limits. One shocking thing is that it comes in drastically different sizes and mights.

We should talk more about this new life form ....

Gimme Eat?? Bajwa,

You gotta understand two things. First that food is one of the very basic needs of humans and morality goes into toilet if somebody is really hungry, that would probably apply to you at least at a reasonably high hunger level. The second thing is that the world works on probability. The few chaps who stoop down to the level of animals in revealing their hunger are just there to balance the laws of chance that dictate that the whole society cannot exhibit the high morals which we find inside our minds. But then, there are poeple like you to balance the balance.

You should ask yourself a question, that is, what are the high morals that you wish to see in all humans? Are they really necessary? If yes, then why? What is the point? Hunger is justified for the exact same reasons why grielf on somebody`s death is justified. Isn`t it?

Sorry pal, I don`t really mean that you were wrong but just wanted to register a reply. :-)

The art of Qawwali Qawwali is indeed a precious legacy for the people of sub-continent especially Punjab. It has no replacement anywhere else in the world.

It needs to be saved.....

So, let`s talk about what is threatenning it`s life and what can be done?

Threats:

- Our intellectual prejudice that indigenous things are associated with backwardness and hinder progress, so even if they move us, let`s not indulge in them and get `practical` and `progressive`.

- Insignificant centralized effort on a national level to spend on and sustain the elements of our heritage. No systemetic teaching (e.g. in universtities).

- Denouncement from hardline Islam which sees these things as pollutants in the pure pond of islam.

- Lack of suitable and practical venues where this art can be enjoyed by masses. We only have recordings of TV. Films (even Indian) lag behind Qawwali on the scale of prfoundity. If these two can match, this would be the best use of Qawwali because it needs `mahoul` and film already creates mahoul where qawwali can pop in some time to boost that mahoul.

what can be done?

Parents and the Pill yeah, sex rocks ! if it doesn`t, to phir iss baat ka matlab kiya hay???

``I will not answer the question as to why I am on the pill. I’m not done dancing with the Chowk crowd here``

Civilized people doing see tripple x. it`s too crude and obvious,

baat poori hay, adhoori chahiye jaan-e-jaan,
kaam asaan hay, issay dushwaar hona chahiye,

so, they resort to double x. this is the strength of this story. very sensitively calibrated according to the today`s desi position on sex. very intelligent indeed.

romair, you are probably right but your mirroring is not welcomed because it ruins the joy of the situation.

chaar dinaan di dunya aye........

Charity temp:

jawab nahin yaar.

probably it is something like when osama bin laden gives a statement that islam is a religion of compassion.

for your wandering soul, somebody has said,

woh ishq jo ham se rooth gaya, ab uss ka haal sunayen kiya,
koi meher nahin, koi qeher nahin, phir sacha shair sunayen kiya!

Which Road will the Pope Take? Re: # 14 renash,

i am aware of the allegations you put in your posts, and take whatever responsibility i need to take. how`s that?

but the thing is, you guys seem so obsessed with this islamic fundamentalism thing that more than us, you see things thru it. my point is, this article doesn`t even hint about what muslims think or do, but somebody here picked up the first name of the writer and started needling islamic fundamentalism which is completely independent of the subject of this article.

if a guy from pakistan writes something, he may not be a jihadi aur a sympathizer of one (which is the case most of the time). he sure shares his nationality with them but nationality is not to be taken for complete similarity or for that matter, responsibility. do you think fundos are thriving because everybody likes them? no! believe me, it`s complicated than that.

bhai mere, you think it is the best position you can take for things to get better? i say this is the most convinient position.

Which Road will the Pope Take? and by the way, smart pops know that the only way to get any consideration from millions of indifferent first worlders is to cut down the crap of religious fundamentalism. they sure will be interested in selling from their shop, no matter how stright they might be in terms of their religious orthodoxy. it`s just that they don`t have the luxary of blind audiance like there is in abudance in muslim countries.

they are like a strict father who used to kick and punch his son for his own reasons but now that the son has outgrown him in strength, knows that the only way to save some respect is to back off from being a `bad father` and do whatever it costs to look like a `good father`.

Which Road will the Pope Take? akpower,

yaar don`t mess with such folks. i hate to say this but at least from my experience of this forum, i have realized a recently developed prejudice in hindus against muslims. it is as if they are trying to prove something, as if they are taking some kind of revenge. i think the recipie for developing such an enlightment is the following:

- remain subjugated for several centruies by foriegn masters
- obtain the inevitable freedom
- wait untill the GDP starts to rise
- after it does, start talking all kind of shit against your ex-masters

have some morals guys. i am an athiest, a lover of my historical heritage, may it be in india or pakistan, comming from any religion, hinuism, islam, sikhism or budhism but the obvious self-invented contempt of GDP indians puts me off.

Soapbox Sania If this article hasn`t been written from the view point of an all-true-islam, it has a bit of real message in it too.

when you belong to some particular creed and somehow decide that you can`t take all the shit it has to offer, this does not necessarily mean that you undergo a metamorphosis and get born anew. Not that you don`t have the right to do that, but because there is a middle way which is helpful for all.

so, sani could have worn long sleeves and trousers, even if she disliked them, for the only reason that it could have brought some resonance in her fellow muslim women who, instead of taking her as a sllut, could have patronized her. It would have been a step in the positive direction. Her dancing around the court in front of pulic alone already is a big punch on the face of hardliner islam, but she might keep the opinion that all those conservative hardliners are not evil, they are facing a problem.

but she is just 18 years old and doesn`t read chowk !

Mr. Ahmed I liked this short story.

Very true reflection indeed.

On the Importance of Reclaiming Chowk ntsyed:

for the first time, i am seeing a little rationalist sitting inside you. it`s a good feeling man.

On the Importance of Reclaiming Chowk Re: # 124 FV: this might disappoint but will surely convince people here who want to turn chowk into an `anjuman-e-sataaish-e-baahmi` (a mutual flattering organization).

i am glad that chowk editorial - the perdah-nasheen - are in touch with reality.

On the Importance of Reclaiming Chowk Re: # 106 urstruly`s words have a little bit of truth in them. i have also noticed that by virtue of india`s GDP argument, some indians here sound of fascism. i don`t know why?

poeple arguing about tight morality on chowk should try to peek inside their girebaan, i hope they will see that they live by a stubburn policy which they love to see imposed on everything they are a part of. not that that policy is bad or is regressive, but because the fact of this world is that there is no aboslute policy. diversity is the soul of humans taken in a collective sense, may it be of moods, behaviours, attitudes or beliefs. chowk thrives because it provides an outlet for this. i can blasphame on chowk, something which i cannot do in a real chowk in pakistan for fear of my dear life.

khowaab ki tabeer per israar hay jin ko,
unhain pehle khowaab se bedaar hona chahiye,

On the Importance of Reclaiming Chowk some observations to help thinkers think:

- once an article got it through to getting published because chowk might have been short on money to pay the net host`s bill. that article generated so classy profane comments that after reading them, i laughed like i never did without having a roll on my head.

- once i got very disterbed by a very gentle comment that no profanity can bring.

- when i joined chowk, i identified some bad sheep very quickly. since then, i am not giving much importance to their rants, i even don`t read their post till the end. i have no hard feelings for poeple who write them.

- i usually don`t use exotic and offending langauge and i think as a result, i have seldomn been abused here.


- when i see many folks articulate their point of view which is 180 degree different from mine, i get a good feeling of completeness, of reality. i am a part of something which has all the elements of our society. this makes me think that chowk is not any bubble.

- there is a chinease saying, `a wise man is who knows how to remain happy`.

and i am cool with how things are......