I Could Invent a Religion… Ref #30 by harimau

The discussion is not about Islam but about religion in general. But the same holds true for Islam. The space for debate about the religion and practices have been taken over by the right leaving no space for a civilised discussion.

The challenge is to develop new categories and vocabularies of engagement. To understand the multiple aspects of religion in daily life.

The reason Indian life is so suffused with religion is because Hinduism is co-opted various cultural practices. What is Diwali, Holi, Basant?..try and see them in light of agricultural seasons and the logic emerges.

What has changed today with SANSKAAR and other channels is that religion has become in your face. People will have a Puja in a colony with loudspeakers spoiling everyones Sunday.

BTW
Christmas is a religious/commercial holiday. Like all holidays it has different meanings for different people. It was a ``pagan`` festival that early Christianity adopted in its bid for survival.

Aditya

I Could Invent a Religion… Hi Revathy

A quick post, will write more at leisure.

Thanks for the article.

A few days back attended a discusssion on Secularism, Democracy et al by a major writer/thinker. He took a position somewhat similar to yours, arguing for the complete erasure of religion from public life.

the discussion left me thinking. is religion the problem or its manipulation?

hmm by adopting an ``idea`` of secularism WE (and here I mean educated, ``rational,scientific`` citizens, products of a ``secular`` education) abandoned the field of the religion to the far right and others.

By denying its role in the public sphere, we denied ourselves the the possibilty of engaing with it in a constructive sense.

What we have produced by our ``secular`` education system in India and the West, are citizens with no knowledge about other cultures, religions and that ignorance has over time bred hostility.

Dont get me wrong...The answer is NOT religious education, but conversation about each others religion as a part of the education.

Pakistani Obsessions An interesting perspective.

my only point of disagreement, Kashmir, what else??:)

Kashmir is the not the only reason that the two neighbours are at each other`s throat.
Kashmir is a symptom.

the clue may lie in your earlier statement:

``Interestingly, the most rabid India haters don’t even acknowledge our shared traditions and would very much like do away with all the cultural assimilation that occurred over the centuries.``

the production of histories that have denied the presence of the other, by Pakistan and to a lesser extent India, creates an environment where competition can never be healthy.

Witness the interactions on this site AND on your article which will loose all the traces of civility in the next few days, by both Indians and Pakistanis, particularly the ones settled in the West (a huge generalisation, i admit).

Thanks.

p.s. Never knew that Bhutto raised the slogan `roti, kapda aur makan`. Indira Gandhi took a leaf from his book and tried the same in India. Tchah, one cant even expect originality!

Why Do We Reject Our Past? Dear Abdullah

Thanks for your very interesting article. While I applaud your sentiments i think that your argument is inherently flawed in one major respect. You are correct when you argue that History as it is taught is flawed and denys the subcontinents influence in the creation of the pakistani identity and yet you believe that you can reconcile it with the creation of pakistan.

I would argue that the creation of Pakistan necessiated the production of a history to justify its existence. All nation states do that; national anthems, symbols, poets et al are all part of a process where a cultural heritage is produced and valorised. Denying ``Indic`` civilisation is a part and parcel of the two nation theory. One cannot be without the other.

Btw, Indians do not see the taj as a product of their Islamic heritage but of what is called INDO-ISLAMIC heritage. The Lodi Tomb, the Taj and other monuments reflect the development of a design form that was unique to the subcontinent. A design form that was rooted in composite culture.

Aditya

Why Do We Reject Our Past? Dear Abdullah

Thanks for your very interesting article. While I applaud your sentiments i think that your argument is inherently flawed in one major respect. You are correct when you argue that History as it is taught is flawed and denys the subcontinents influence in the creation of the pakistani identity and yet you believe that you can reconcile it with the creation of pakistan.

I would argue that the creation of Pakistan necessiated the production of a history to justify its existence. All nation states do that; national anthems, symbols, poets et al are all part of a process where a cultural heritage is produced and valorised. Denying ``Indic`` civilisation is a part and parcel of the two nation theory. One cannot be without the other.

Btw, Indians do not see the taj as a product of their Islamic heritage but of what is called INDO-ISLAMIC heritage. The Lodi Tomb, the Taj and other monuments reflect the development of a design form that was unique to the subcontinent. A design form that was rooted in composite culture.

Aditya

Saving the Female Fetus Dost Mittar

An interesting article with interesting responses below;)

On a serious note: Can I have the reference for Dharma Kumar`s quote? I find it difficult to believe that she would have stated the above and would like to read it in its context.

Aditya

The Return of the Anti-hero Hi Saima

Nice review. For me the movie was fascinating not only in its (re) packaging of the Bhagat Singh et al but looking at the grey area of freedom fighter/terrorist.

The same movie could have been made for ULFA which was set up by young men in Assam or JKLF in kashmir ;)

Seconds ...loved the movie but dont think it holds the seconds from me. Go for TAXI NO 9211...a fantastic Bombay movie.

aditya

The \'Ikes of March Dear Shandana

Nice article and I think things will only get worse in the future. Or maybe i am being pessimistic.

Hamidm2: there is always a possibility for a slug fest...your own statement can act as a catalyst..i have ceased to be surprised at the inanities that can cause a mudfight at Chowk.

The Holy Falooda Dear Jibran

Thanks for a very moving article. Your translation of Bulle Shah`s verses makes me want to buy a CD of Rabbi Shergill. Now, is not that an excellent example of globalisation, where culture can be presented/sold as a commodity with slick marketing.

In listening to the CD, lost in the lyrics, one may believe that we are connected with Bulle Shah of the ages... till the track ends.

And where does that leave us? What is culture...can we try and define it as a nonelastic intangible which is represented by us as our past and present ? We endow it with mystical qualities, at times seeking to protect/defend it, at times propogate and less and less often, challenge it.

In my hometown in Uttaranchal (a new state in the Indian Himalayas,carved out of Uttar Pradesh) there was an old temple made of stone. Bare black stone in the typical Kumaoni style (Kumaon and Garhwal being the two main historical regions) with a wooden crown. Over the years I have seen it being transformed...the small temple complex being gradually enlarged, marble and granite flooring laid, the entire temple cemented and painted in saffron, yellow. Colours that, to me, represent the spread of orthodox Hinduism of the plains rather than the easygoing type that the hills are known for. Loudspeakers, hitherto unknown and unused for religious practices, became the norm with night long jaagrans (staying up all night singing songs) being blared over the PA system. I mourn the lost simplicity of my village temple as I mourn for Kasur andd Bulle Shah`s shrine.

And that where I think you miss the point in your essay. The challenge to Kasur is not posed by modernity or globalisation..the latter may well be used to commodify its heritage and (re)present it in a new fashion for consumption by a new generation..though many may decry it.

The greater challenge is the one to the heritage of composite culture that Bulle Shah represents posed by interpretations of Islam that seeks to marginalise the South Asian heritage.

Its a telling comment on CHOWK, where arguments descend into invective and abuse, the focus is on upstaging the Indian or the Pakistani ...and where a very thought provoking essay on our shared heritage is ignored.

Aditya

Turks: The Bad Part Re: # 72

Rolling on the floor and holding my sides ...a brialliant diatribe!

Turks: The Bad Part Dear Fenasi

Many thanks for your interesting window on Turkey. Never been there but as a student of History always fascinated by it. Straddling not continents but cultures and bearing the burden of an Imperial past, modern Turkey sounds like a kichdi (a mixture) and perhaps therein lies their sucess in being represented as ``good muslims`` in a world that increasingly eyes with fear and suspicion anyone with a beard!

As for their so-called inferiority complex, i think you have answered the question yourself..all nations and people are racists to a degree. The caste system, as you restrained from pointing out, is founded in colour ( classifying particular types of labour as menial, I suspect, came later). Let me digress, there are four types of Jews in India.

1) the Konkani Jews, aka Bene Israel were perhaps the oldest of all the Jewish communities in India. They dressed in the traditional Maharashtrian style, with the women wearing the nine-yard sari. Its is believed that they migrated to India at a very early stage and have intermarried with other communities which is why they do not have the typical semitic features. Their religious practice involved only certain rituals bore only a vestigeal resemblance to traditional jewish religion.

2) The Cochin jews were traders who came after the destruction of the temple and stayed on to contribute to the flowering of cosmopolitan culture in that part of the world, with jewish , the first muslim and christian in India mingling with the indigenous population. Till today there is a ``Jew town`` in cochin.

3) the last migratory group was the Baghdadi Jews, a catch all name to refer to Jews coming from the mid-east. the most famous of them were the Sassons, who created a business empire stretchin from Bombay to Shanghai. they have left behind the sassoon library (beautiful building) and the Sasoon dock in Bombay.

4) the fourth group are the most curous of them all, Manipuri Jews. Around 10years back a small tribe in manipur in NE India declared that they were one of the lost tribes of israel. The jury is still out and the israelis arte themselves not sure of how to deal with them..in the mean time some of them have migrated to Israel (and serving in the army acc. to Israeli law) causing some heartburn to the missionaries in the NE.

Now, why this little history lesson?

Well as you pointed out racisim is endemic. Of all the jews listed here (lets exclude the Manipuris for the moment), the Baghdadi Jews were your archetype Jew, fair and semitic in appearence. the average Cochin or konkani Jew, looked more indian than anything else and the latter even more so. And it is they who have suffered racism in Israel where I suspect the desire to build and maintain the state, means steamrolling over cultural hybridity. Its sad when a people whose history has been one of persecution ends up doing the same. (I`ll give the Ottomans this..when they occupied Jerusalem, there was no persecution and no matter what the Arabs and other say, Ottoman rule, though decadent and feudal was also lenient in some other ways).

Moral of the story..why blame the Turks for being racist? as they say in Hindi, when you point one finger, three others point back at you!

would love to go to Istanbul.......

regards

aditya

p.s. Read ``The Historian`` ..a fantastic, if a bit Dan Brown-ish , account of Ottoman and Eastern Europe political relations.

Under the Influence Re: # 27, #38

Absolutely ignorant about the rock secene in Pakistan, except for Junoon ofcourse. But I would tend to agree with #38.

In India, the rock scene is sustained by college and university festivals who generate enough funding through MNC`s to pay for a band to come and perform. for bands like Parikrama, its their bread and butter.

significantly, fusion bands, like Indian Ocean have done far better, in financial terms and in building up a following. but not many indian bands have been sucessful in that direction unlike, I suspect, Pakistan. Wonder why though??

All in all, while a band may not directly be funded by MNC`s...they mostly perform at events that are sponsored by them. Except, as far as i know, Indian Ocean.

Under the Influence Hi
thanks for this great write up on Pakistani music.

one of the underlying themes in the article was how bands/artists declined as they took on sponsorships by MNC`s. you also hint that even the sound of the band changes.

could you or someone please talk a bit more about this?

thanks

Earthquake Relief Efforts Re: # 2

Edge, you are a moron!

Secular Army Hi Veeresh

Nice article and you made some interesting points which you could have pushed further.

1. The Secular Army?
In a coutry, where most institutions have failed completely the army is glorifies as `secular`, apolitical reflecting our own failures. An army is as good or as bad as the people of the country it is drawn from. How long will the Indian Army remain secular and apolitical when the public sphere and the body politic is slowly becoming undemocratic and communal?

2. The Apolitical army?
the Indian army is apolitical not only because of its traditions and its commanders but more importantly because the political space for it to take over is just not there. The very nature of politics in India, parties representing different groups,castes and aspirations is the result of the democratic processes initiated by the freedom movement ,supported by the Constitution. While the process has been through its ups and downs, it is still a viable process and it has left little space, despite its many failures, for the army to take over.
(Perhaps this is a good time to acknowledge Nehru for laying the foundations of democracy. Whatever the faults the poor man is cursed for today, remember you can curse him only coz its a democracy.)

The point here is that, while i am proud of the army, I am not grateful to it for its apolitical nature. To do so, is to be grateful to the postman who delivers post or the electricity guy for doing his work etc.

Veeresh, I do hope you understand what I mean. As a son of an Army officer i am proud of the army as well. My school, Army Public School,Delhi has a martyr`s gallery to honour its aluminis who died in Kargil and lots of my classmates serve in the army now.

And yet, I also see the army as the most colonial institution in India. Perhaps its these very colonial traditions that keep it secular , at the same time, one must recognise that the system of orderlies for officers and other such vanities has to come to an end.

cheers

Aditya

Re-evaluating the First United States—Pakistan Alliance Re: # 3
Dont bee too harsh on Nehru ...the man was a visionary and like all idealists, occasionally out of step with reality.....but despite his foreign policy disaster ....he laid ground for a lot that is good in India...the tech boom that we are witnessing..powered by IIT`s, a healthy respect for democracy, the absolutely apolitical Army...a lot of this was possible bcoz of Nehru.....ofcourse the license raj stifled innovation and entrepreneurship...but is it not better to have a good polity before the economy unlike the (paper) Asian tigers of SE Asia...we have a long way to go in reforming the economy but an even longer way to go in liberalising our society .....the q`s is what comes first...the chicken or the egg???

# Yaqoob

a great read...interesting to hear a different perspective of the `62 ....the Sino-Pak alliance has been a thorn that the south block (offices of the Ministry of External Affairs) chooses to ignore like an ostrich...i find the spokesperson, the archetype of indian diplomatic personnel...arrogant idiots!