Advani in Karachi #282, Kaalchakra {``Consider this geographical unit`s size, resources, location, neighbors, and consider the energies released through cooperation between Hindus and Muslims, rather than dissipated in mutual conflicts and wars, and it becomes possible to arrive at a radically different picture of potential opportunities for everyone, and for Muslims.``}

So well stated. I think that is the main reason why we should minimize the mistakes of these people who are the legendary forefathers of BOTH countries. At least the Indian leaders made fewer mistakes for their people.

Advani in Karachi I think that we need to enter a ``forgive and forget`` phase in Indo/Pak relations. Jinnah, Gandhi, Patel, Liaquat, Nishtar, and Nehru are long gone. They themselves did not realize that the religion card being played and misplayed would consume the rest of their political lives. Partition was never a serious issue as far as Jinnah was concerned - just as ``divorce`` is never serious when either partner first brings it up. Partition was a trump card and Jinnah used it only to secure a larger piece of the pie for himself and his ``Muslim`` constituency. What happened instead was the ``Muslim Homeland`` bandwagon that took on a life of its own. Mountbatten tried to dissuade Jinnah by offering him a ``moth-eaten`` Pakistan, which Jinnah surprisingly accepted. What followed was the horrible massacres and ad-hoc exchange of populations from several border provinces.

India needs to develop a more mature, more generous, and more compassionate posture as far as Pakistan is concerned. Pakistan needs to abandon the ``Islamic`` mantra, curb violence at home and in Kashmir, and set demilitarization as its strategy. A Muslim majority in any part of the subcontinent does not automatically make that part an inheritance of Pakistan. Muradabad, certain neighborhoods of Bhopal, Lucknow, and Hyderabad, whether Muslim or not, will remain part of India. Similarly, Srinagar, Jammu, Kargil, Baramula, and Poonch can remain part of Indiia whether they are Muslim or not. The important thing is to restore religion to where it should always have been - a deeply personal concern.

Both Pakistan and India need to get past the horrors and awful results of the events of 1947.

The Book is also Just a Book Cayenne,
The Holy Quran cannot be desecrated. Just because certain people have captured some wind in their intestines does not mean they have defiled the hurricane or tornado. :)
Salim

The Book is also Just a Book Echoboom #108,
You are so right when it comes to comparing Western thought to our self-inflicted misery. I just want our people to come to their senses, get a hold of their emotions, and behave in a rational manner, consistent with their true religious values and not just the selfish agenda set by a few rabid drum beaters. I think we agree. How are you doing my friend?
Salim

The Book is also Just a Book Farzana #112, {``Salim, is this your idea of a bachelor party?! Khush raho...let us see if you will still walk around these parts during the baby-shower... ``}

Farzana,
Thanks for your kind wishes. Yes, anytime you write there is a party atmosphere. You just do that to people. Thanks for a truly timely and well-presented essay. As for the baby shower, it is my sincere desire to fill the world with little Rajputs. :)
Salim

The Book is also Just a Book Re: # 95
Dost Sahib,
Very well stated and in such a short post. It is true, the US has traditionally supported right-wing Muslim activity against Soviet/Chinese Communist influence. Now the chickens have come hom to roost.

The Book is also Just a Book echoboom #68.
My dear friend, we are basically agreeing. I took the Shia Sunni reference from Farzana`s essay to highlight where our emphasis in Islamic energy should be placed. We need to do positive things to and for each other and then to extend that truly ``Mohammedan`` behavior to non-Muslims, as well. Let`s not think of the soccer game nor of the Olymipics, let`s think of the creatures participating in them. I said ``Mohammedan`` because I consider myself one - a follower of that perfection of a man, who was compassionate, selfless, non-violent, loving, tolerant, and understanding. Flushing pages on which his message is printed is like burning another country`s flag - neither translates into victory or satisfaction. Echo, buddy, make the umbrella of Islam as wide as possible and accommodate as many as possible - then you will have true success.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan

The Book is also Just a Book Farzana, {``* Sunnis and Shias routinely violate each other’s existence and they follow the same Book.
Would this qualify as desecration?``}

So well stated.
Another timely masterpiece from a talented writer who is not afraid to state the obvious in her own inimitable style.
I agree with you and do so as a person who has a profound respect and love for the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and his noble mission and universal message.
Flushing an object down the toilet, whether true or a fantasy, is exactly that - a stupid attempt at clogging up basic services such as plumbing.
What is sacred is the message and not the paper on which the message is printed. Desecration is definitely in the total disobedience and disregard of the basic message of the Holy Koran - something that most Mullahs, including UBL and his cohorts and supporters are definitely guilty of. Killing, maiming, injuring, suicide, torture, raping, and burning are all acts of desecration of the Holy Koran. Shamefully, most of the perpetrators of these desecrations are people at the forefront of fundamentalist Islam. Thank you for enlightening us once again. Great article.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan

Wapsi (The Returning) Re: # 285

MahesG2,
I think your numbers make sense. Yes, 5 million or more Hindus and Sikhs left West Punjab to go to East Punjab - especially in 1947-48. I have been trying to tell you that. Yes, you can call it ethnic cleansing. But it is also a fact that many more millions, possibly 8 to 10 million Muslims came to Pakistan from East Punjab, Delhi, UP, Rajasthan, and Gujarat.
After 1947-48, there were hardly any Muslims left in East Punjab. Patiala, I have been told was a Muslim majority princely state, where many of the inhabitants were systematically killed by the maharaja`s forces. I heard similar situation happened in kapurthala. Amritsar district, also having a huge, if not a majority Muslim population, was totally cleansed. So ethnic cleansing occurred in both halves of Punjab. The point is that after this 47 madness, no Gujarat type riots took place in West Pakistan to this day.
If you are shocked by the fact that only 1 million out of 6 million remained in W. Punjab and Sindh, why aren`t you shocked by the fact that almost no Muslims remain in E. Punjab out of a population of much more than 6 million. Jullundur, Amritsar, Patiala, Ludhiana, Ferozepore, Pathankot, Gurdaspur, Ambala, and Panipat all had significant Muslim populations. That is what happened in 47 in Punjab - ethnic cleansing on both sides.

As far as your contention that Gujarat type riots would take place in Pakistan if only the victims were present, you are dead wrong. The jihadis, mullahs, and fanatics, as despicable as they are, do not care about killing the minorities` men, women, and children. In fact, they may be more interested in establishing an ``Islamic State`` that ``saves`` these infidels from hell, by trying to convert them. Most of all they are more interested in eliminating those ``liberal`` Muslims who stand in their way of imposing an ``Islamic`` state. Individual fanatics may blow themselves up and kill some non-Muslims, but they have been targeting other Muslims in Pakistan mainly.

Unlike the Hinduva-inspired RSS/BJP/VHP/SP/BD/JS fanatics, the jihadists are not out for revenge for perceived atrocities from the 8th and 10th through 19th centuries. They are not trying to rape Hindu and Sikh women so that they can be happy that the sins of Ghaznavi, Ghori, and Babur have been repaid. Come on, MaheshG2, see the difference. Jihadists believe in violence for ``independence`` from infidels, including Muslim liberals and imposition of ``Islamic`` rule and are even willing to commit suicide to accomplish these goals. Hindutva fanatics want to extract revenge for past humiliations and are willing to commit violence only if their own lives are not in danger. This was the case in Gujarat, Bombay and most other riots where the RSS types were ``victorious.``

Shatranj ke Khiladi Re: # 316

Amit,
Need to add some clarifications. EVen our hardliners are nice people, they just need love, attention, and applause.
Gujju - a very nice kid who uses profanity as the peacock uses colors to attract hens.
Urstruly - actually loves Indians, but doesn`t want to admit it during preliminary negotiations.
Jay - Couldn`t live a week without consuming some news about Pakistan. Should become a lasting friend of Urstruly.
Echoboom - a real Indian patriot waiting for the right moment to unfurl the tiranga with a star and crescent on it.
:)

Shatranj ke Khiladi #312, cayenne, {``Kardesh!!.....Unity???.....What about porn?.I don`t want any mullah`s running rampage over us telling us what to do or see.Don`t give me nightmares in the afternoon.``}

Cayeene Bhai,
Relax. In our ideal united Pak Hindustan, the Mullahs will be the main stars in much of the porn. :) You will be able to watch it in the afternoon and not have to wait till the Mrs. goes to sleep.


#311, amit {``Yaar, I totally agree with you that these borders are meaningless. I will just add one caveat. Lets take jay, urstruly, Gujjubania, echoboom and all their clones on both sides and exile them to Tibet, Afghanistan, Lakshwadeep or any other corner that is miles away from civilization. That will truly turn the subcontinent into a paradise:}

Amit, friend, I am glad that we are in agreement. Now, what shall we do about our beloved hard-liners?

Tibet - Ah yes, the land of wisdom! Is it wise to have these hard-liners get any wiser? That may be a deadly combination - jingoism and wisdom.
Afghanistan - I asked the Tally Ban contact and they have said that the last thing they want to do is to invite more bombing from USAF. There is one governorship open in Mazar-i-Sharif, good salary, lousy retirement plan.
Lakshwadeep - Last I checked, these islands were still part of India. I insist on having these stay peaceful, just in case I want to retire in a nice, warm, green, tropical place.

I have other suggestions for your kind considerations:

Saudi Arabia,
Nepal,
Finland,
Bylorussia,
Ukraine,
Greenland.
and lastly Bora Bora :)

Wapsi (The Returning) MaheshG2, #271, {``Kardesh, okay even if I grant you that the transfer of population in 1948 was the main reason for minority population reduction then that itself had a huge impact!!!! Minority population being reduced from 20% to 3% is no joke.

Don`t forget the the influx of Muslims from Punjab, Delhi, UP, Gujarat, Rajasthan, and Bombay was huge in the period from 1947 through 1950 - when the doors to Pakistan were closed. To say that over 5-6 million people came to West Pakistan and approximately 5 million left West Pakistan would not be an exaggeration. Hopefully, someone with more exact and accurate numbers can enlighten us. Yes, I understand from reading books that approximately 1-2 million people perished (nice word for slaughtered) during partition - primarily in Punjab, some in Delhi, and many in Bihar and Bengal.

So, if millions of Hindus and Sikhs left and millions of Muslims arrived, is it any wonder that a population that may have been in double digit percentages has shrunk to low single digits? I think the math will support this - because this is the truth. I am not aware of mass conversions or slaughter taking place after 1948.


{``Please employ logic. For Gujarats to happen you need some minority presence.
It`s like somebody boasting that he never shouts at his kids after getting rid of all his kids some 50 years ago.
How can Pakistanis claim that they treat their minorities better than Indians do when they

1) wiped them all out when they had a chance
2) relegated all minorities to second class status. ``}

Pakistan, as a government, did not wipe out its minorities, neither did the GOI. Most Hindus and Sikhs left Pakistan, especially Punjab, due to the danger to their lives in 47 and the fact that they did not want to live in an Islamic state. The deliberate desire of Sikh leaders to reconvene a solid majority in East Punjab, along with the mass killings of Muslims in East Punjab, especially Patiala, Amritsar, and Kapurthala, helped to facilitate this huge migration.

Now, for a Gujarat to take place, you need cowardly people, who are only willing to rape, kill, burn, and loot when there is no danger for their own safety. That safety is further enhanced by state sponsorship and a police and infrastructure, ready and willing, to provide that support. That is what happened in Gujarat. That is what happened in Bombay. I blame the Modis and Thackerays for making such slaughters possible. Maybe if Bin Laden, or Mullah Omar were the CMs of Punjab and Sindh, we could still have such a horrible thing happen in Pakistan - but I think that Pakistanis are not inclined to killing men, women, and children en masse. Most Indians are also not inclined to engage in mass slaughter. You need an organizations, e.g. Siv Sena/RSS/BJP/JS/SP/BD type activists, propaganda, slogans, newspapers that support that type of ideology, a state infrastructure, and a weak central government, willing to let that happen. That was the case in Nazi Germany, that is what happened in Gujarat, and that can happen in US, if the KKK, Aryan Nation, etc ever get into government.

Wapsi (The Returning) #269 anil
{``You have answered beautifully in #265. You should do what makes you proud, but then I am not a religious nut. Although I am very proud of my Kashmiri Brahmin heritage.``}

Thank you ani. Who knows you might be related to Allama Iqbal. :) He was also descended from Kashmiri Brahmins.

{``BTW Kardesh, did you misspell ``Most of us like women. :)``, or you really meant ``women``, and are getting married to ``a`` woman?``}

Yes, I did mean ``women.`` Most Rajput men like (prefer) women. Yes, I am getting married to a girl - thank God. :) The joke was about using ``Khan`` as last names, since you may have objected to Muslim Rajputs holding on to their ``Hindu`` last names. :)

{``I also feel, Nelson Mandela did much better to close the book on Apartheid, thru the establishment of Truth and Reconcilation Commission. Gandhi and Jinnah failed and never gave a closure to Indian and Pakistani minds on the partition. South Asia has been paying dearly for this non-closure. When we think further in historical context, I find that such truth and reconcilation never happened in South Asia (though, I wonder why), and may explain persistent gap.``}

You are so right about this. For some reason, in both India and Pakistan, we don`t bring closure to any bad event. Massacres, horrible accidents, governmental blunders - they all seem to get swept under the rug. Yes, there are blue and red ribbon commissions, they come out with verbose reports that say nothing, and then the story gets faded. The victims are left to simmer and plan their own retribution. You stated it very well.

Wapsi (The Returning) Re: # 276 kardesh {``As for the one way traffic, my female Rajput cousins in Jaipur are reversing the flow. I have two Hindu brothers-in-law - and no they did not convert. :)

Just to clarify, in our culture we refer to husbands of female cousins as behnois - brothers-in-law. :) I realize the English term is used exclusively for husbands of actual sisters. :)

Wapsi (The Returning) Netizen #274, {``It was Akbars diplomacy. If you cant beat them, join them (close enough). Moghal empire would not have survived too long without Rajput support. Humayun lost whatever Babur got together. By supporting the Mughals Rajputana prospered and hence you have architectural splendours in Rajasthan.``}

I agree with you. Without Rajput support, the Mughals would have long lost their empire to additional Pathan uprisings. Give Akbar and his Rajput in-laws credit for sound strategic thinking for that period.

{``Anyway, I don`t think the Rajputs considered the Mughals that closely related unless they had their daughter married to them. From the Mughal prespective, I would not think they considered Rajput/Hindu heritage as a part of theirs. As far as I know no Mughal princess married a Rajput. It was a one way traffic.``}

By this time, Mughals were more Persian and Rajput in both complexion and language. There was substantial rajput influence in terms of dress, ceremony, and social customs - only in Indo/Pak do Muslim brides wear red instead of the traditional white of mideastern Muslim countries. As for the one way traffic, my female Rajput cousins in Jaipur are reversing the flow. I have two Hindu brothers-in-law - and no they did not convert. :)

Shatranj ke Khiladi amit #304, {``Salim, that is a good plan, except that we will end up with Akhand Bharat again :-)!! ... If that`s the idea, why bother to fight? Let`s just reunite and have Akhand Bharat. Kashmir problem is solved forever :-).

Amit,
You are one smart dude. You got it. I was trying to show the stupidity of these two countries fighting over borders. One way of getting all of Kashmir for BOTH sides is to take the rest of it for free, without a fight. Pakistan gets all of Punjab, Delhi, UP, MP, Bengal (at least west Bengal), Assam, Orissa, Jarkhand, UA, AP, Maharashtra, even Gujrat, TN, Karnataka, Kerala, Goa, Rajasthan, Haryana, HP, and yes, Bihar. India gets all of Punjab, Baluchistan, and yes NWFP (because you can`t say no - we took Bihar, so you should suffer, too), and then Sindh - thus making your national anthem technically correct.

As long as we can visit the area without hindrance, who cares where the damned place is anyway. Once united, with maximum local autonomy, people will love the idea. In the end, that is the ultimate solution, we will get there now or much later. :)