The Open Circle Decent article mate...also good to see some of the resident RSS boys on form too.

Fauzia’s Rejection Re: 237: No offense Ms. Simran....but if you are looking for liberation from say the MMA as an alternative to dear Dubya..I wish you and all the ladies of Pakistan the very best luck.

Fauzia’s Rejection Dear All..one thing..on the case of the UAE you are all mistaken. It is indeed a centre of extreme piety...especially due to the flocks of young (and old)...men that pour in on weekends (and weekdays) from its neighbouring land of the purest come pouring in for ``relaxation`` and other ways to spread their piety.

Fauzia’s Rejection More of evidence of happy all women are in ``traditional marriages``..with all the ``honour`` bestowed upon them from their caring men....honour that clearly outweights their miserable lives.


mother lies in a coma after being shot by son. Her crime? Talking about her brutal husband on TV

Nicholas Birch in Istanbul
Saturday May 21, 2005
The Guardian

Birgul Isik had not expected to find her oldest son waiting for her at the bus station when she and four of her children returned from Istanbul to the central Anatolian province of Elazigon on Tuesday.
She certainly wasn`t expecting the 14-year-old to pull out a gun as she moved to embrace him. ``You`ve disgraced the family``, he said, and shot her five times in the head and chest. She is still in a coma.


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For the police who charged the boy with attempted murder, and arrested his father and uncle on suspicion of incitement, it is just another example of the ``honour`` crimes that result in the deaths of scores if not hundreds of Turkish women each year. Most die for breaking the rules of propriety: they talk to men in the street, they wear the wrong clothes, they insist on education rather than an early arranged marriage.
Ms Isik`s crime was to appear on television. It was the fifth time she had fled her violent, bigamous husband. Ignored by the authorities, abandoned by her own parents, who reportedly told her ``a woman`s place is with her husband``, she finally agreed last Friday to appear on a show many have described as Turkey`s equivalent of Oprah Winfrey.

You only have to glance at Yasemin Bozkurt`s daily programme Woman`s Voice to see why. There`s the live studio audience, the frequent angry exchanges. The themes are familiar too: match-making, runaway children, violent husbands.

A radical break from Turkish TV`s traditional mix of local sitcoms and Hollywood fare, the show, like its half-a-dozen competitors, has proved a hit. Despite the early afternoon slot, it regularly rates among the country`s top 10. It has also courted controversy from the start.

The presenters see themselves as defenders of women`s rights, confronting issues that had previously been hidden away in the silence of family homes. For their critics, they are purveyors of ``victimisation TV``, using people`s suffering to improve ratings and advertising revenue.

According to RTUK, the state body that monitors - and censors - broadcasts, 3,600 viewers complained about the shows in the first three months of 2005. ``I`m fed up with watching women fight on TV``, said one. Another complained that his wife was so engrossed she no longer got up to get her children a glass of milk.

Nedim Hazar, a columnist for the conservative daily Zaman, was blunter. If the presenters refuse to make changes, he wrote this April, ``they should build a clinic, a prison and a morgue in their studios``. Events on April 16 seemed to prove the critics right.

A day after they appeared on Woman`s Voice to talk about bride exchange, a custom particularly widespread among Turkey`s Kurdish minority, two men were shot to death by a relative. A policeman was also killed trying to intervene.

Despite media outrage, the show escaped unscathed. This week`s attempted murder in Elazig changed that. On Wednesday, Kanal D announced it was suspending Woman`s Voice. Another private channel followed suit with its equivalent, You`re Not Alone. ``These programmes touch a raw nerve``, said the RTUK`s head, Fatih Karaca, in support of the closures. ``They discuss family, children, marital relations - sensitive topics to Turks - in an indecently open way.``

Yasemin Bozkurt`s peers rallied round her. Blaming the violence on the show is absurd, argued her Show TV rival Serap Ezgu. ``Let`s ban Formula 1 - it encourages speeding. Let`s ban cartoons - last month a kid jumped from the fourth floor because he thought he was Superman.``

For sociologist Ayse Oncu, the vilification of the shows has a lot to do with the audience they cultivate - lower-middle-class housewives. It`s not for nothing, she says, that critics condescendingly call the shows shanty-town TV. ``These programmes do present issues in a cheap way,`` said Leyla Pervizat, a commentator on women`s issues. ``But they are an accurate reflection of what is out there.``

There are no Turkey-wide statistics on the incidence of domestic violence, though experts estimate that at least a third of the adult female population have been victims. A series of local surveys quoted in an Amnesty International report last year suggest a higher figure.

Turkish civil society is still too weak to replace traditional social structures, and decades of huge rural exodus have probably only increased the phenomenon. There are barely a dozen women`s shelters in the country, and none is up to international standards. Their staff, women`s activists complain, often refuse access to women without ID or even those most in need of protection - women who have ``lost their honour``.

The police and judiciary are little better. Amnesty cites cases of prosecutors refusing to open domestic violence cases unless the woman was able to prove she could not work for a week.

According to reports, it was the Istanbul police who encouraged Birgul Isik to contact Yasemin Bozkurt`s show. ``Appearing on TV was as good as a death sentence,`` says Leyla Pervizat. ``What in God`s name did they think they were doing?``

For Haluk Sahin, a columnist for the liberal daily Radikal, the TV agony aunts can take credit for publicising the issue. Before they came along, he says, the audiences they cater for had no voice. ``Now that they do, what they are saying should be taken as an alarm signal. If people heed the alarm, maybe something good will come out of all this.``

A Season of Faith’s Defection You`re treading down a dangerous line here....secularists as fanatic as they maybe rarely if ever condemn other religious/social groups tp eternal condemnation..believe in divine ordained religious wars....try utterly and completely restrict one half of society to becoming ``home makers``...believe in the ``protocols of the elders of zion``...heheh...have fantastic notion of religious defined supra-national state coming to power to defeat the ``unbelievers``...severely restrict many areas of scientific and social research in the name of religion....need I go on..point...we`re talking two very different issues....and secularist fanatics for all their eccentricities are not quote the threat to modern developing societies that the mad mullah bunch are.

Fauzia’s Rejection Re 110: Great article mate...I hope this 14 year old ``Islamic`` teen meets her perfect mullah in shining armour to come whisk her away from the Pagan landscape of Canada...and I do sincerely hope that she learns to ``get along`` with him...lest he have to chide her...then avoid her...and then beat her (lightly)..hheheheheheh.

Seriously there ain nothing wrong with arranged marriages but crap like the article discussed above that place the Western side into ``aimless`` dating and the ``Islamic`` side..(Actually its cultural NOT religuos all across Asia and Parts of Africa too for that matter)..shown as heavenly bliss in the long run...``desis fall in love after marriage``..and other stereotypes..do nothing for productive debate

Fauzia’s Rejection Pretty Interesting article..though some of the replies and inherent ideologies revealed behind them were even more interesting. Good to see the pseudo-mullahs here straight up attack thing ``whore`` for her actions....heheh.wouldnt have expected less...than some of the ``moderates`` offering collective opinions that can be summed as...its all good that this Fauzia has escaped the the living hell of the traditional saas-bahu relationship..but she should have expressed her `defiance` of this society by ``excelling``....in education...career..blah de blah....id like to ask most of the males..here...quite a few in particular probably have done some of their education abroad...I know from my indian and pak mates...as guys at least ``expressin`` ourselves in terms of our social lives was part of the game too...and rarely have I heard one of us lot who might have had more than the average share of luck with the opposite sex being called a male whore or a gigolo.hehehe...it all comes down to sex and sexuality of the female for some people...pretty sad I gotta say in this day and age.

March for Peace Re 18: Harish..interesting points you made there...good to see an Indian bring up the points that Jihad rarely has..is or ever will be a purely selfless ideological goal..but is supported by the far more wordly factor of commerical enterprise...its no surprise Al-qaeda has been throwinng millions round everywhere...and for that matter too the ridiculous manner in which the Pak govt paid tribals out there in north waziristan for them in turn to pay their ``debts`` to al qaeda.....similarily ur right...there can never be a fully govt supported peace initiative between India and Pakistan as long as the latter`s military-mullah nexus continues to benefit from a permenant state of ``hostility``

Uproar over a Cartoon? Sorry for the prior mispost.

Uproar over a cartoon??????/...where is the uproar over this from all the mullahs and other self righteous lot in Pakistan....not to say the ``silent majority`` this is from your Daily Times

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: Commenting on the clerics’ decree against suicide attacks on holy places, Minister of State for Religious Affairs Aamir Liaqat Hussain on Tuesday said the decree was only for Pakistan and that suicide attacks in Iraq and Palestine were justified because Muslims were fighting foreign occupation there.

“Iraqi people can resort to suicide attacks against the US forces. Suicide attacks in Iraq and Palestine are legitimate because the Muslims in these countries are being killed by the invading forces,” he said, adding that the decree was issued in the context of Pakistan with a view to stopping terrorism at holy places. He said killing a Muslim without a just reason was forbidden in Islam and killing a Muslim for“God’s blessing was infidelity.

A govt minister expliticly supporting if not advocating more of these bloody suicide attacks that have been mainly killing innocent Iraqi civilians (instead of ``US Targets``) at a rate of 50 odd per day....and then following it up with: `` killing a Muslim without a just reason was forbidden in Islam``.....meaning what..well could be several things but me thinks most of his target audience would concur that means killing non-muslims ``without a just reason`` is viable.

Honestly...where are the riots from the thinking ``silent majority`` when the national religiou minister goes on air to make such assinine loaded statements.....(wassnt this the fool who faked all his degrees from some online uni...)

Uproar over a Cartoon? Uproar over a cartoon??????/...where is the uproar over this from all the mullahs and other self righteous lot in Pakistan....not to say the ``silent majority`` this is from your Daily Times

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: Commenting on the clerics’ decree against suicide attacks on holy places, Minister of State for Religious Affairs Aamir Liaqat Hussain on Tuesday said the decree was only for Pakistan and that suicide attacks in Iraq and Palestine were justified because Muslims were fighting foreign occupation there.

“Iraqi people can resort to suicide attacks against the US forces. Suicide attacks in Iraq and Palestine are legitimate because the Muslims in these countries are being killed by the invading forces,” he said, adding that the decree was issued in the context of Pakistan with a view to stopping terrorism at holy places. He said killing a Muslim without a just reason was forbidden in Islam and killing a Muslim for“God’s blessing was infidelity.

A govt minister expliticly supporting if not advocating more of these bloody suicide attacks that have been mainly killing innocent Iraqi civilians (instead of ``US Targets``) at a rate of 50 odd per day....and then following it up with: `` Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: Commenting on the clerics’ decree against suicide attacks on holy places, Minister of State for Religious Affairs Aamir Liaqat Hussain on Tuesday said the decree was only for Pakistan and that suicide attacks in Iraq and Palestine were justified because Muslims were fighting foreign occupation there.

“Iraqi people can resort to suicide attacks against the US forces. Suicide attacks in Iraq and Palestine are legitimate because the Muslims in these countries are being killed by the invading forces,” he said, adding that the decree was issued in the context of Pakistan with a view to stopping terrorism at holy places. He said killing a Muslim without a just reason was forbidden in Islam``.....meaning what..well could be several things but me thinks most of his target audience would concur that means killing non-muslims ``without a just reason`` is viable.

Honestly...where are the riots from the thinking ``silent majority`` when the national religiou minister goes on air to make such assinine loaded statements.....(wassnt this the fool who faked all his degrees from some online uni...)

Intelligent Design or Accident? The process of evolution in some form or another as the answer to how the universe was and is currently formed does seem likely..due to the vast preponderance of evidence relative to the word for word ``creation theory``

The question...is as much as science can ultimately offer the ``how`` in all of this..it has not been able nor seem likely to be able to shed one shred of evidence to the ``why`` Stephen Hawkings seems to agree with this latter point in his written works.

Uproar over a Cartoon? Breaking news...maybe not all that surprising..but still what do all the resident fundos here who believe that Mushy...Dubya`s own ``pet poodle`` will is there to stay beyond 2007...despair...anger..fear...what are the prevalent feelings I would like to know...and for that matter the views of more normal majority would be interesting...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4555911.stm

``There is no doubt that he will remain a candidate for the post of president after 2007 and, inshallah, he will win,`` Information Minister Rashid told Reuters news agency.``

loved that quote....was there a need for the inshallah there? hehehehe

March for Peace Re 5: Spot on Tahmed...couldnt have said it better sir.

Dusk Ozer:...Listen mate...it wasnt the varied use of metaphor that led me to make my prior statment...in fact it was quite easy to pick your critique of post modern society with all its incidental pecularities...point is..you might have overdone it ..and thus it has come off sounding quite pretentious to me...and a few others too it seems...nothing more..nothing less..perhaps a secondary more direct article on the specific reasons for the gradual emergence of some the factors that have led to this society could be an interesting enough read.

March for Peace Simple Answers:
Why easy visas given to thousands of cricket fans to visit Pakistan and not too visitinmg ``peacemakers``?......Cause PCB and more importantly important officials in it know all about the corporate game that has taken over cricket and the huge sums that can be made from having thousands of visiting fans from India come over for a series...and for that have the clout to influence policy
..On the other hand having a bunch of generally left wing lovey dovey peaceful sorts (as important as they in reality are)...is quite unlikely to get much notice from Musharraf and co. up there in the leadership.

Uproar over a Cartoon? All this is...is evidence of how far Pakistan has to go towards becoming a rationale mature and democratic society. The hypocrisy factor has someone has earlier mentioned too is stunning...for god sakes it seems that daily US and other Western flags are burned..effigies of leaders too for that matter...are these not even more ``symbolic`` than some stupic WT cartoon... a paper that 80% of average Pakistanis wouldnt have under normal circumstances known to exist. The extreme hyperbole from the Pakistani leadership especially seems to be more than adequete evidence of how close the cartoon hits home...but they shouldnt fret there are about another 10 or so states that are ``frontline`` states in the ``war on terrorism`` ...and fundamentally if they are being forced to do a lot of Dubya`s dirty work....well that indeed is the price for 20 years of plying a religious fundamentalism based geo-political strategy in the region. What goes around..always comes around...