Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen Taslima Nasreen wrote the following interesting article after this fatwa fiasco:

OPINION
It Feels, Speaks, Smells Like Home
If not East Bengal, perhaps West Bengal? All I want is to be with people of my culture, to write in my language.


Taslima Nasreen


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What is my crime? My crime is that I have found that Islam does not consider woman a separate human being. Man is the original creation and womankind was created secondarily for the pleasure of man. Islam considers woman a slave, a sexual object and a son-producing machine. The Hadith says that two prayers that never reach the heavens are: those of escaping slaves and of women who frustrate their husbands at night.

Islam considers women psychologically inferior. In Islamic law, the testimony of two women is worth that of one man. In a case where a man suspects his wife of adultery or denies the legitimacy of the offspring, his testimony is worth that of four witnesses.



Bangladesh doesn`t want me. So if India gives me a home, why should it concern Bangladesh at all?


A woman does not have the right to charge her husband likewise. Women cannot inherit property equally with their brothers.

And after all the rights and freedom, after getting all the sexual pleasure and pleasure of being the masters, men will


be rewarded with wine, food, and 72 virgins in Paradise, including their wives on earth. And what is the reward for a pious woman? Nothing. Nothing but the same old husband, the same man who caused her suffering while they were on earth. It became clear to me that the male of the species had written the holy Quran for its own interest, its own comfort, its own fun. Then I studied other religions, and I found they, too, oppressed women. Far too many women are trafficked and sold into slavery. Men throw acid on their bodies, burn their faces, smash their noses, melt their eyes, and walk away with impunity.

They are beaten, flogged, stoned to death. Women are raped, then accused of having allowed the rape, and the rapists are set free. Violence against women in not a crime in my country.

Nobody taught me to protest, but from an early age I learnt the importance


Some say this might worsen India`s ties with Bangladesh. When I stay in America or Europe, do their relations worsen?




of fighting against oppression. I wanted to write books so that I could change this. Wanting to do something constructive, I wrote about the need for women to understand why they are oppressed and why they should fight back. For centuries, women have been taught that they must not speak out against their abusers. Through my writings, I tried to encourage women to fight for their rights and freedom. My voice gave women the chance to think differently.

That did not please the religious fundamentalists, of course. They grew enraged when I said that religious law, which discriminates against women, needs to be replaced by a secular law with a uniform civil code. Before long, hundreds of thousands of extremists appeared on the streets and demanded my execution by hanging. A fatwa was issued against me, setting a price on my head. The government, instead of taking action against the fundamentalists, took action against me. I was charged with blasphemy. An arrest warrant was issued. I had to go into hiding, and later, in 1994, forced to leave my country. Since then, I have tried to go back home many times, but with no luck. Instead of being able to live where I was born and brought up, I had to go and live in western Europe, where I was condemned to a life term as an outsider. How to express that hopeless, helpless feeling: a stranger in my own country, and a stranger in the West.

My only hope now is West Bengal. I have never distinguished between the two Bengals. For me they are inseparable. My parents were born in undivided India, not I. But I did feel the pain of partition. Nearly a decade ago I wrote: ``India wasn`t a scrap of paper that it could be torn into pieces. The people who fought in 1971 wiped away the two-nation theory, proved that Muslim unity was a myth``; ``we are extending our hands towards each other and between us stands the monster of religious boundaries``. For this, I was called a traitor in Bangladesh.

The torture of innocents inspired me to write my documentary novel Lajja. When I spoke about Hindus being oppressed, Muslims called me a plaything of Hindu fundamentalists. When I received a prestigious literary award in India, I became an outcast in the literary circle of Bangladesh. They called me an agent of raw. I didn`t even know the meaning of raw then!

Since I started writing, I`ve faced lies and constant character assassination. Religion is the biggest obstacle in the path of freedom of women; but whenever I say this, I fall into the clutches of fundamentalists. They were angry with me from the beginning but gradually I found even moderate Muslims became my enemies. When I was forced to leave my country, I kept hoping the situation would improve someday and I`d finally go home. But I couldn`t have been more wrong.

No matter which party came to power in the last 12 years, the government`s agenda remained the same as far as my fate was concerned: I was barred from entering my own country. The political parties thought alike: if they allow me in, they would be labelled anti-religious and lose votes. Western Europe has given me asylum. That`s given me some security, but it`s not home. Repeatedly I tried to return to Bangladesh. Not being able to do so tore me to bits. Then I found the other Bengal. If not home to East Bengal, perhaps I could go to West Bengal, to Calcutta, a place that was almost home? But that wasn`t easy either. India`s doors stayed shut for me for six years, from 1994 to 1999.

The door finally opened—if you can deem it thus—in November `99. I was granted a tourist visa. Any tourist with a European passport can get a visa from an Indian embassy abroad. But my case was different. My appeal had to be sent to Delhi and a visa came with endless caveats. If I wanted a visa for three months, I got it for perhaps three days. After a few visits, I tried for anything that would let me stay here longer: citizenship, if not that, a residential permit.

Was I asking for too much? I am not taking anyone`s job. All I want is to live a writer`s life. As a writer I crave for my language, to live with people who share my culture—is that so unjustified? Western Europe saved my life; I can`t help but hope India will save me as a writer. There are writers who can write in exile, living in a country where no one speaks her language or understands her culture. I can`t. There are many who leave their own country willingly. I haven`t.

As a writer, I need India for many reasons. In Europe and the US, I may find asylum but I will always stand apart as an outsider, either because of my colour or culture. Here in India, no matter which city or state I travel in, I don`t ever feel like a foreigner, I merge easily into the crowd. I need that melting down in order to be able to write.

India is a vast country. From the beginning of history, innumerable people ended up in this cul de sac. Some have visited and then left, others have stayed, sending their roots firmly down. India has always warmly embraced every stranger, people of different colours, languages, religions, ethnicity and opinions. The door was ever open to an outsider. With hundreds of languages and cultures, India is unique in its generosity to the stranger. So why is there no place for me?

I`ve never asked for political asylum from India. All I want is to be able to live here. I might breathe in a distant land somewhere, but my heart is in Bengal. So why is my appeal to live here dealt with politically? Some argue that if India were to grant me citizenship, then her relationship with Bangladesh would worsen. As if I were a common criminal wanted back home that India is harbouring! Fact is, Bangladesh doesn`t want me.So if India gives me a home, why should it concern Bangladesh at all? When I stay in Europe and America, does it worsen their relationship with Bangladesh? Instead, I imagine Bangladesh heaving a sigh of relief if India grants me shelter, like going to an aunt after fighting with your mother.

I can`t help recalling those days when authors from the West joined together to save me. They not only put pressure on their own governments but also prevailed on the European Union to save a writer from oblivion. It was thanks to their efforts that governments in the West were compelled to save me from being hanged. Then followed a kind of tug-of-war between various countries. Norway, Sweden, Germany, everyone wanted me to live with them. Granting me residency or even citizenship was a prestige issue for them: it would ensure them fame.

I don`t know who decides whether or not I stay in West Bengal. Some say the government wants to please the Muslims. Some say it`s the intellectuals who`re afraid, or jealous. Did West Bengal ever love me? Yes, she did. Annadasankar Roy, a famous free thinker, once said affectionately that ``Bangladesh is Taslima`s mother and West Bengal her aunt``. When I talked of women`s rights, I got a hard kick from Bangladesh and a kiss from West Bengal. Actually it`s not the country which kicks or kisses, but the people. I have noticed that the number of secular and rational people here is far more than in Bangladesh.

And just as I love East Bengal, return again and again at its door even when I`ve been thrown out, just so do I love and return here to West Bengal.

Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen #334

You were wrong and still shamelessly lying.

Wanker....

Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen #328, HP, says I`m a liar, liar, liar and says fk, fk, fk.

I think you`re losing it in your impotent rage.....

The book I bought from Oxford University Press. It has 813 pages + index and introduction not exactly what you yanked off the net. I have the original. It`s MRP is 700rs and I bought it for 700Indian Rs with a 10% discount from Oxford Uni Press in India. I bought 3 copies, two for friends.

The Khatma`s were obviously a very small time tribe of a few folks and not some major historical dynasty, fkhead.

The story is pukka in the major historical biography of the Prophet, who the translator is doesn`t change whether Asma Bint Marwan is in it or not. It`s in the original.

You are shooting blanks with your line of attack and now lost it completely so screaming Liar and fk, fk, fk.

Your crude attempt to bully isn`t working out so piss off or if you have any basic manners apologise for your fake accusations of Liar.

PS.
The answer to the first question you ask is affirmative in your case.

Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen The m`s came because I missed the comma, that`s plot 38, P.O.Box 8214.

It`s also a very nice printing and binding job.

Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen Ref for HP:

The Life of Muhammad, A translation of Sirat Rasul Allah, ISBN 0 19 636033 1, Oxford University Press, 2004, Printed in Pakistan by Mas Printers, Karachi.
Published by Ameen Saiyid, Plot No.38m Sector 15, Korangi Ind Area. PO Box 8214m, Karachi - 74900, Pakistan.

Page 676.

Paragraph ends:

Now there was a great commotion among B.Khatma that day about the affair of Bint Marwan. She had five sons, and when `Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, `I have killed Bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don`t keep me waiting`. That was the first day that Islam became powerful among B.Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The first of them to accept Islam was `Umayr b.` Adiy who was called `the Reader`, and `Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam.

Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen HP wrote:

Basically it is an unauthenticated story....Making a never heard of story the basis of the whole article is ridiculeous. The auth Mr. Kisan should have given some explanation to this effect. He did not even bother to quote the reference.
What about the Al-Khatmi guy? Abu Afak is a fake too never heard that anywhere else.
Second, Any one can enter anything on Wiki. It is not a 100% accurate references in such cases.
Thanks for you effrots.

See post number 9 for the link to hyperlinks for references.

None of the refs are wik but rather sahih hadiths and as mentioned these are also there in Ibn Ishaq.

Should expect such type of smear job from HP which is characteristic of his style who I recall saying after bombings in Delhi that Indians have it all coming for Kashmir and it was logical and rational (and justified) to bomb people in trains and markets.

It is those like HP who are the justifiers and supporters of terrorism and I personally find more obnoxious than straight out mullahs.

Those who know their Islam like Urstruly wouldn`t deny the sources quoted but this is type of response to be expected from likes of HP.

References are all there and this is nothing new as HP pretends so disingeneously.

Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen
PMishra2 makes some valid points about the attempts to censor those challenging Hindutva politics being censored by the Govt in India under the BJP. This shows a real problem from Hindu fundamentalists also. The nature of it may be slightly different but it is still problematic.

You wrote:
However, I would also like you to comment on incidents like:

(a) Exile of MF Husain from India
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2007/04/06/his_epic_works_have_brought_him_praise_and_protests/

After cartoon incident Hindu fanatics saw the opportunity to say ``us too``, he`s insulting our religious feelings too. BJP even brought this up in the parliament.

(b) Attacks on American Scholar and burning of great indian library in Pune
http://www.complete-review.com/quarterly/vol5/issue1/laine0.htm

The above gives BJP a very bad look with Vajpayee justifying what took place and suggesting prosecuting a historian for hurting sentiments.

(c) Attack on Indian historians - example of Professor Jha
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1818/18180160.htm

All of these examples show the same phenomenon of using legal maneuvers, intimidation and limited amounts of violence to enforce Hindu dogma and a line of Hindu politically correct history telling and this in the name of ``respecting Hindu sentiments``.

You wrote:
Where do these fit in? This has nothing to do with Islam, right? So there are sources of intolerance in many cultures, including hindu culture, and each culture should struggle to rid themselves of this scourge. The roots may be different - religous imperialism in islam - excessive localism and superstition in hinduism - but the results can be strikingly similar.


Most cultures will use state apparatus`s to protect the official dogmas. Islam is however par exellence unique in the extent of the violence it allows itself in protecting it`s official dogmas with killing of apostates and murdering of those who critique it`s prophet. Often times the Hindu fanatics use as a justification for their actions a type of example pointing to the effectiveness of Islamic fanaticism and say that if it works for them we should also use such tactics too. That is not to say that Hindu fanaticism is not a major problem in it`s own right although it is a novice in regards to Islamic extremism at present.

There is a need to allow for free critique of dogmas curtailed at present in the name of respecting sentiments (and temporarily avoiding riots and bloodshed by those with hurt religious sentiments).

K.

Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen I thank Chowk staff for posting my essay even though it is almost 4 weeks after it was written and the issue has become a little `old news`.

Somehow all of the hyperlinks that are there in the original (18) aren`t there in this version. I don`t know how to post hyperlinks in the interacts also.

Another place where the article is available with all hyperlinks is:

http://islam-watch.org/others/Death_Fatwa_Taslima.htm

Re: Zeenas contortions that : # 6:- If, Taslima has had insulted Islam , then she is held responsible for her bigot actions.

No, people don`t get beheaded for insulting peoples beliefs in this day and age as a religious right. Such mentality believing in the right to kill those insulting our cherished dogmas has no place in modern world.

K.

Religious Tourism Visit Pakistan, Year 2007 has gotten off to a bad start with most likely Islamic thugs (a.k.a mujahideen) bombing the Indo-Pak train today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070219/ap_on_re_as/india_train_fire

66 die in India-Pakistan train attack

February 19, 2007 08:37 IST
Last Updated: February 19, 2007 11:13 IST

In a suspected terror attack, 66 people, including some Pakistani nationals,
were killed in explosions believed to have been set off by improvised explosive
devices in two coaches of the Delhi-Attari special train for Lahore at Deewana
near Panipat, about 100 kms from Delhi.

Several people were also injured in the incident, which the Northern Railway
said was a clear case of sabotage.

The two coaches, where all the deaths took place, were completely gutted and
only the charred remains were visible.

The explosions in the train took place at 11:55 pm on Sunday night. The
biweekly train left the Old Delhi railway station at 10:40 pm.

Northern Railway General Manger V N Mathur, who reached the spot from Delhi,
said two suitcases were recovered from the spot -- one on the rail track and one
from the train.

Both the suitcases contained IEDs -- one of them also had incendiary material,
either kerosene or petrol, he said.

He said he had talked to the gateman near Deewana station who told him that he
had heard two distinct explosions. ``From this evidence, we deduce that this is a
clear case of sabotage,`` Mathur said.

After detaching the two coaches, the rest of the train left for Attari via
Wagah. Superintendent of Police (Panipat) Mohinder Singh Sheoran said that
forensic experts from Madhuban were summoned.

A senior police officer said a Pakistani national has also given information
to police regarding some explosive being planted on the train.
The official said the passenger was identified as Shamshuddin.

Two Railway Protection Force personnel, who were on duty in the two
compartments are missing, he said, adding that it was suspected that they could
be among the dead. The train runs non-stop from Delhi to Attari where the
passengers are shifted to the Samjhauta Express, which goes to Lahore after
Customs and Immigration clearances.

The train only has operational halts at some stations, including Ludhiana and
no passenger can alight from or board the train en route.

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Our Jihadi friends have a history of attacking cross border transport and passengers in pursuit of their work to make Allahs laws and rule supreme:

Militant killed in attack on trans-Kashmir bus shelter
http://www.abc.net.au/ra/news/stories/s1339845.htm

5 killed, 12 hurt in Kashmir bus attack
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2002_Oct_7/ai_94075387

These bastards are bad for the tourism sector (beheading tourists and the like) and give religion are dirty name (if you can give Arabic imperialism aka Islam that lofty title).

K.

The Myth of the New India Yes, there is a lot of hype over Indian development. But yes there is a hell of a lot of development going on in certain places.

Recently I was in Jaipur and the buildings coming up there are amazing as well as 3 lane roads in either direction. It is an amazing transformation. Go away and come back in 6 months and you will be stunned at the new buildings that have come up.

The same thing is there in Delhi in parts with Gurgaon looking like a Tiger economy location.

In Bangalore driving through Koramangala today and visiting a large mall with 12 cinemas I can see that in certain places India is booming. This is limited to only various locations though and even in these places there is shocking poverty.

1.3 million jobs will create a mass of other flow on jobs as people cater to these well earning people but yes it is only a small scale start.

The author is sympathetic to the communist cause and wherever the communists (either political faction or violent revolutionary type) are in sway the massive advances are not in evidence.

Who will invest time and money in a place where you might be murdered or kidnapped for being a wicked exploiter? I certainly have second thoughts about investing in a Naxal affected area where desperately poor relatives live. In Kerala where there is abundant natural resources and even a well educated populace with a communist Govt when going there I was surprised by the terrible state of the roads and the complete absence of development of industries and basic facilities.

Aside from this however Indian manufacturing is growing rapidly in quality and sophistication. I bought a Nokia phone in Asia last week and it was made in India, certainly not what I thought would be the manufacturing place.

As India liberalises imports and the protected industries nurtured in their inefficiency by socialist protectionism have to face Chinese imports suddenly instead of closing their factories down some of these substandard manufacturers suddenly lift their game and start making decent product importing modern machinery and innovating.

In the last week I saw massive technical improvements in products that were made by hand now made by machines. As this low tech technique shifts to to mechanised work these workers in inefficient wishy washy Gandhian village manufacturing can join more efficient production techniques.

Progress is going on across the Country and despite a hell of a long way to go the progress is gathering in momentum.

This mechanism will lift India rapidly if it can avoid religious fundamentalism and communist fundamentalism.......

Bomb Blasts in Delhi Here`s my two cents:

http://www.vinnomot.com/Kisan/DelhiBlasts.htm

London’s Hour of Reckoning An article by me on the London bombings and aftermath:

http://faithfreedom.org/oped/BKisan50721.htm

Iranian Puzzle Another view on the puzzle:

Islamist Regime in Total Control

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by Amir Taheri

The Australian

June 27, 2005

ZAMINLARZEH! The word, that means earthquake in Persian, is on every mouth in Iran as the nation tries to absorb the shock of Friday`s election that catapulted a little-known figure into the position of President of the Islamic Republic.

That figure is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who became mayor of Tehran less than two years ago. He won the presidency in a landslide, crushing the mullah-cum business tycoon Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, one of the pillars of the regime since its inception in 1979.

Ahmadinejad holds a PhD in engineering from Iran `s most elite university, and is far better educated than all of his five predecessors as president.

A reservist colonel of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, he is the first president of the Islamic Republic with a military background. The son of a blacksmith, he is the first president of the Islamic Republic to come from a poor family and one of few senior figures in the regime not to have amassed a personal fortune in recent years.

But Ahmadinejad`s chief asset, and the main if not sole reason for his victory is his relationship with and fierce loyalty to the Supreme Guide, Ali Khamenehi, the true and almost absolute ruler of the country. The two met in 1979 when Khamenehi served as deputy defence minister and have been close ever since.

Some analysts have dismissed Ahmadinejad`s emergence as a front-line player in Iranian politics as irrelevant because the electoral process that produced his win was manifestly flawed.

Nevertheless, his election is an important development. After all, this is the first time in the 26-year history of the Islamic Republic that a mullah has been beaten by a non-mullah in a high-profile electoral contest. His win is all the more significant because his rival was not only Iran `s richest man but also the best-known figure of the Khomeinist regime.

Ahmadinejad`s victory means that Khamenehi, who has established himself as head of the most radical faction within the Khomeinist establishment, now controls all levers of power for the first time. He will now be able to put his own men in charge of all key government departments. Any idea of Western-style reforms to please the restive middle classes will be abandoned.

The concentration of power in the hands of the radical faction will end more than two decades of divided government that has put many aspects of policy on autopilot as it were. Two years ago when King Abdullah II of Jordan telephoned Khatami to complain about Iran setting up terrorist cells in Amman, the Iranian president was able to claim that he knew nothing of it because he did not control all organs of government.

The Europeans who have been negotiating with Tehran over the nuclear issue have also heard similar claims from Iranian counterparts. With Ahmadinejad in charge, however, such claims will no longer be credible because the camarilla headed by Khamenehi is now in complete control. Rafsanjani had promised the Chinese model - meaning the combination of a despotic political regime with capitalist economic policies. Ahmadinejad promises a North Korean model - that is to say a totalitarian system and a command economy.

Ahmadinejad`s election shows that the Khomeinist regime cannot be reformed from within. It also shows that there is still a strong constituency in Iran for the populist message of the ayatollah. True, far fewer people voted than the regime claims. But those who did vote preferred Ahmadinejad`s ``pure Islam`` to Rafsanjani`s attempt at perpetuating the myth that Iran today is, in the words of the former US president Bill Clinton, ``a progressist democracy``.

Ahmadinejad describes himself as a fundamentalist, has no qualms about asserting that there can be no democracy in Islam, rejects free-market economics, and insists on ``religious duties`` rather than human rights. This clarity will, in the medium term, help the people of Iran understand the choices involved. They will learn that they cannot have an Islamist system together with the goodies that the modern world offers in both material and spiritual terms.

Unlike Khatami, who was trying to hoodwink the Europeans over the Iranian nuclear project, Ahmadinejad openly says Iran does have such a program, is proud of it, and that no one has the right to question Iran`s right to develop whatever weapons it wants.

Should the outside world be frightened? Not necessarily. Paradoxically, the clarity created by this election may prove useful. Khatami went around the world speaking about Hegel and Nietzsche to ruling elites and creating the illusion that the Islamic Republic was part of the global system symbolised by the World Trade Organisation, the Davos forum, and the Western non-governmental organisations of do-gooders.

Ahmadinejad`s victory reveals the true face of the Islamic Republic as a regional power with its own world vision that challenges the so-called ``global consensus``. It reminds the world that the mini-Cold War that started between the Islamic Republic and the West, notably the US, is far from over.

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Iranian author Amir Taheri was editor-in-chief of Kayhan, the most important Iranian daily under the Shah. He is a member of Benador Associates.

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URL: http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/16225

The Alternative Muslim Identity #256 Kaalchakra

I`m not from California although I`ve been there a couple of times. I`m in Australia.

#255 Tahmed

Thanks for the welcome.

The Alternative Muslim Identity Re: a few points.

I think Hamid is just joking about wanting to be white to get some responses and for comic effect. I certainly thought most of his posts were hilarious.

Seriously though although culturally in India and it seems from the responses on this board Pakistan too people take their shade of colour seriously (and the lighter the better).

I`m a white guy (Engreiz) living a lot in India and speaking mediocre Hindi and know this inferiority complex over colour well (although this doesn`t stop Gora being a common type of putdown or insult either). I get ``Eh Gora`` all the time, or people especially kids nudging each other and saying ``dekho Gora ja raha hai`` pointing fingers.
I feel like copying Eminem and saying: ``ya ain`t seen a white person before?``.

I bought couple of gulab jamins in Sadar Bazaar Delhi around a month ago and as I was eating another customer came and said ``kala dena, do pees`` ie. well cooked, and the shopkeeper answered ``sab kala hain, yah India hai, gora kahaan se milega``.

Sometimes I wish I could be less white so I could blend in India or other places.
The other day I went to rural Haryana and walking into a shop started talking and the young guy was confused as I was talking like an Indian but looking very unusual. A business contact came in with me just behind me and and the young guy turned to him with a bewildered expression and said ``yah bahar ka hai na?``.
I got my Karnataka driving license and proudly show it off as proof of being Indian regularly.......dekho, main bahar ka nahin hum.

Personally I find darker complexioned people very beautiful for some reason and I find it funny that my South Indian partner wears Fair and Lovely cream religiously despite me critiquing regularly. Then the marriage ads in the papers detailing skin perplexion are a laugh also and sending this up as Hamid has brings focus to this ridiculous situation of colour consciousness.

I used to say that when darker coloured people put fair and lovely on and go out trying to look less dark ``bhoot ki tarah dikhai dete``. People look beautiful when the are comfortable with and confident with their own looks.

My son is darker than most Indians but I`m in love with him and his mum and they are the most beautiful people in my eyes.
I have encountered racism a lot in India, more so than other countries I`ve been so far (although the UK also has some very nasty racist bigotry).
Almost all of the models on TV or advertising are light skinned also.

Re: Izzat etc, I agree also that it isn`t a great value. Honour and respect are the kind of values that lead to unnecessary violence and cruelty like honour killings etc.
One time walking in Lal Bagh some young Tamil guys said something disrespectful to the missus which I missed, she went and confronted them and then one of them lifted his hand to strike her. I ran over there and floored him and then some plain clothed police and a big crowd came around. I explained the situation and they said we`ll arrest the guys who happened to be Army recruits and I thought give them a chance as they were drunk and I didn`t want to get them arrested. The undercover police officer said ``hamare izzat ki baat hai`` I said ``izzat kya hai, chorna`` and talked them into letting them go. Then as they walked off they said some smart comment and the police officer grabbed them again and they got taken away by the military police a bit later.
Long story, but still I agree that the obsession with Izzat isn`t a good value. It is a tribal value. Tribal values champion the collective values of the tribe as opposed to individual rights which are more stressed by modern Western culture. I prefer that stress on individual rights.

All that being said in reference to Zehra Rizvi`s essay I think the best identification is the human one.

The Ultimate Betrayal Re #182

ana answers well #181 and Urstruly`s argument is a silly one. I was going to reply but it this answers well.

Re #162

Thanks for the praise Hamid.