The Ultimate Betrayal Re #177

Urstruly, see post #160 where I did rationalise good and bad without Allah and his Nabis help or any other religions help.

It is based on knowing that something harms you and you don`t like it and then considering that others also wouldn`t like it.

If someone burns you with fire you know that it hurts without reference to Allah and you can extrapolate from that it would hurt others also and therefore is BAD.
When you see abject suffering if you have a heart you feel empathy.

Religion can teach you to override this basic humanity by rationalising slavery etc as Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc have all done.

The Ultimate Betrayal Post #52 HP wrote:

``I think you are missing the point urstruly is articulating. His question is fairly simple. Under what value system would you oppose the father and daughter sexual relations? His contention is that only religion(s) provides that framework or the value system, which forbids the incest relationship. Since secular or liberal have no code written or otherwise to guide the society on this behavior. ``

I haven`t read through this full thread yet so I`m not sure what response was given to this point. However this is a standard point from religious preachers I am familiar with and have thought through the answer.
This is the point that unless there is Absolute morality from God then how can there be any standard that applies to all. This is problematic because there are many competing religions all with differing moralities laid out and all claim to be from God and Absolute and complete and that the others are either false or incomplete or abrogated by their religion.
So as final answers to moral questions religions are problematic.
However most major religions outlaw incest it is true. However not all, some cult-leaders build their own religions which they indoctinate their family members to have sex with them using some rationalisation. For example David Koresh is supposed to have been into that.
His cult was also called by him and his followers as a religion.

Anyhow, in regards to how do people not claiming an Absolute Divine religion justify say prohibiting incest and allowing gay relationships?

Quite easily. Adults are different from children for one and incest is generally with children who are not at the age to be mature enough to choose sexual partners and even have sexual feelings. Pedophiles mistake affection as sexual behaviour. Secondly incest is unhealthy for the offspring as they will be genetically inferior. Thirdly it abuses trust and a powerful relationship and is an unequal relationship.
Anyhow these are all reasons without an absolute basis as religion gives. However the general principle behind it is the rule of would you like it to be done to you? This is the principle underlying the conscience of someone who doesn`t take their rules from a religion but from thinking things through.
I wouldn`t like to be enslaved or raped therefore I create laws to make these things illegal. I wouldn`t like to be murdered therefore I make murder a crime. I wouldn`t like to be physically forced or coerced into anything I don`t want therefore violent coercion is made illegal. Children are understood as immature and protected from sexual predators including Dads, Uncles, family friends etc.
Same thing applies with Gay sex. However when mature if members of the same sex wish to have relationships without applying force then in case mutually acceptable we accept that choice. They are adults. If old men want to have sex with underage boys we make that criminal as the child hasn`t reached the age of physical or emotional maturity.
We value avoiding exploitative relationships on ourselves so we make laws to allow that for all children.

Islam doesn`t stress this and marrying a prepubescent girl was the Sunnah set as example. A six year old girl playing with toys found herself married to a 50+ year old man. Keeping slaves was allowed and practised. No empathy guiding law creation rather Allahs arbitrary and self-proclaimed Absolute laws. Having sex with slave women legal but women having sex with anyone other than husband or a master if they are a slave illegal and punishable by stoning to death. Again Allahs arbitrary and Absolute laws which just happened to coincide with the slave owning, slave making recipients of Allahs revelation.
Some don`t believe these were the revelations of the Absolute but self-serving concoctions. In the absence of a big loud voice from the clouds laws created by men and women and the framework they reach by debate and consensus stress rights for all and free choice as long as it doesn`t take away the freedom of others.