Advani in Karachi Re: # 479 This is precisely the kind of apprehension that mutual interaction allays. Slavery, colonialism and stuff are passe`. We are talking democracy, a truly participatory democracy with a federal polity. Federal polity would ensure there are no colonies and no slaves. This is a new age. As of now though, as I said we need to live as two independent neighboring countries with porous borders, maybe no visas. More trade, perhaps joint or co-ordinated defence and foreign policy. Give India and Pakistan a joint veto in security council. Must emphasise that modern equivalents of slavery and subjugation do not work in long term.

Advani in Karachi Re: # 474 In 1947 we had the opportunity, a unique one, of living under on state under a democratic dispensation. For all its faults democracy is one big crucible. All it required was a century or two of coexistence and of course a couple of people with intent in that crucial decade. That opportunity is lost. Yet another may shape up though. One feels a strong undercurrent to this effect.

Advani in Karachi Having said this it becomes all the more credible that Jinnah was for a united or unified India. Given a century or so of independent existence we would have become a true one nation even on Jinnah`s own scale of measurement. What prevents us now from living peacefully. We have new generations who are not burdened with the baggage of partition. More exchange, porous borders and an honest reappraisal of historical events, rewriting text books on either side and so on and we can reclaim something out of the ashes.

Advani in Karachi Re: # 471 She did not create Bangladesh out of vacuum. This is what a divisive doctrine always was bound to throw up. Division unto the last tiniest political entity.

Punjab and Bengal should not have been divided because of their century old existence. Why the same did not apply to a 5000 year old coexistence. That would require more of idiocy than intelligence.

Advani in Karachi Can someone educate me on this. Who actually gave the ``Direct Action`` call. What was Jinnah`s role in it. Did he do anything substantial to prevent the mayhem? Looks like he was manipulated on this one.

Advani in Karachi Re: # 465 I guess he (Mantolives) has a better sense of history and connectedness than you and I joined together. He will also know that the heritage we belong to does flow from Bihar, Gujarat and yes Mongolia. I don`t need to tell you how.

As for the train story, its only human. Don`t take it personally. Partition was a big human tragedy. This person`s knowledge of history was obviously inferior to chowkies. If he knew Jinnah was for a united India, maybe he wouldn`t have said all that. Yet the story is true. It happened around many years ago before Kargil. I am sure he was a proud and patriotic Pakistani. So leaving Pakistan wouldn`t be an honourable action.

Advani in Karachi Re: # 460 Were Muslims in minority in the states that constitute Pakistan of today? They were not. So the logic of minority community does not apply to them. For the rest, India has more muslims even today than Pakistan has. They must have felt secure or else why would they have stayed in India. They have also done reasonably well for themselves. But thats another story altogether.

Advani in Karachi Mantolives and people of his ilk know very well that without invoking the name of Jinnah they can`t bring about a change in Pakistan. So their first job should be proving Jinnah`s secular credentials to Pakistani people. Advani may have done him a favour there. It is also the wisest thing to do from Indian perspective. A liberal and secular Pakistan at peace with its neighbours. Dream on!

Advani in Karachi Mantolives and people of his ilk know very well that without invoking the name of Jinnah they can`t bring about a change in Pakistan. So their first job should be proving Jinnah`s secular credentials to Pakistani people. Advani may have done him a favour there. It is also the wisest thing to do from Indian perspective. A liberal and secular Pakistan at peace with its neighbours. Dream on!

Advani in Karachi Re: # 429
Dear Mantolives,
Thanks for your learned and honest opinion.
I feel the need to clarify my position. I would like to base it entirely on your own scholarly rebuttal. However, first let me tell you, I don`t hate Pakistan and this is something I can say beyond doubt. If anything I say has two meanings one of which hurts you as a Pakistani, I undoubtedly mean the other thing. I will try to add to your points one by one

1) Human emotions are human emotions. The idea was only to tell you of a moving incident I was an incidental witness to. All Pakistanis are proud and patriotic citizens of their coutry. I don`t think the person I mentioned made himself a lesser Pakistani by crying and saying what he said. Separation from family and loved ones is never easy. Nor was it easy when partition took place. My contention, however, is about our common heritage which you are proudly disowning.

2) How does it matter as to who should get credit or discredit for partition? Partition is a reality. Long live partition especially as long as you feel the need to uphold it to feel patriotic! My grievance is, however, against the general mud slinging going on on this forum.

3) Who am I to tell you of your heritage. However, you seem to limit yourself to your Punjabi heritage. Please note that even that extends across borders.

4) How will a reading of history that says that the Qaid e Azam was for a united India go with Pakistani masses? Many on this side of the border have made claims to this effect and people like us have tended to believe it . I am sure a person who lived most of his life in Bombay would hate to lose his heritage back in India and would not want India divided. I can`t tell of those who have always lived in the geographical area of present Pakistan but others surely would feel nostalgic about their homes and heritage which they left behind, it should be true of immigrants all over the world. I can say this without prejudice to their patrioticism towards the country of their adapted country. However, the zeal of the neo enthusiast, must also be taken into consideration. The two countervailing forces would tend to show up depending on where you are at a given moment. You can understand my concern is not so much of history but of psychology.

I would like to know your opinion on these issues. I think you would understand my need to understand your point of view. I would also like to know as to what course should the two countries take now.

Advani in Karachi An interesting debate on History, I suppose. For me though its a hollow pseudointellectual exercise. A ``mine is better than yours`` match garbed in nice and not so nice English (not my strong point).
We deify our leaders especially those who led us to or through freedom. Mr. Jinnnah is the father of Pakistani nation. Yet I heard a weeping Pakistani who was returning back after meeting his relatives in India, aboard the same train as I was, curse Mr. Jinnah for separating him from his relatives. If I were a Pakistani muslim I would also accuse him of separating me from my proud legacy, my history, culture and the graves of my ancestors(sorry if it hurts). I guess many would resent the sentimental imagery but I would take it. I would much rather revere the Pakistani policeman on the roads of Lahore who hugged my countrymen when they went to watch cricket there. Anyone who said nice words to those guys or even smiled seeing a sardarji in Lahore, even an illiterate who can`t write Jinnah in Urdu, is wiser than the brigade of cynics at chowk. Chow looks more like Siachin. Move over we need more of Lahories and more of cricket. I know better Indians and Pakistanis eg. the paanwalla, the milkman, the neighbourhood aunty, the autorickshawwallah. They know better.