Iranian Puzzle Re: # 54
Dear uncivilized fellow, make sense American NGOs are not asking for donations in Australia or India, they are keeping their home affairs well within their own home, unlike India which needs to ... well forget it, its something which you would not understand ...

Even your PM cannot claim that you are claiming...see your total debt the assistance given to Afghanistan is not because India has become affluent (refresh your current statistics, India`s 250 million population still lives below poverty line), but to have some political gains to win hearts of Afghans, which it mercilessly crushed at the time of Russian invasion

Pride and Potatoes: Trade with India
When I read this article, for some odd reasons I felt the author is under too much influence of media and especially Indian media, I am sorry to state that as I have thus far not very good experiences with them!

I would request the readers of any media to please do your own research before getting programmed by the media as it is. Few days back I was reading an article in Australia on the same topic by an Indian author. He made a point that it is lack of proper word translation of MFN in Pakistani language Urdu, which has created problem of not granting MFN status to India by Pakistan...it was amazing how this type of logic is accepted by media and allowed to get printed.

Having said that, let me come to the topic of discussion. I was part of the International group and Pakistan Ministry of Trade and Industry`s representative body that conducted the research as to why not to give India MFN status? The research was funded internationally. I do not wish to go into much details, for specific reasons, however would like to mention few things for the readers on the both sides based on which it was decided not to grant India MFN status as ``there did not existed level playing field``; it strongly disappointed the funding agency of the research but had to accept the ground realities:

1. MFN implies that you extend the same operational mechanism to the new trading country, which you are extending to your existing trading partner countries. Problem was that Pakistani economy was a very open economy as compared to the Indian economy. Thus what import restrictions had been placed by the Indians to other countries for items such as automobiles and air-conditioning, those restriction would be applicable to Pakistan as well; and that was the reason why India took initiative to give Pakistan MFN status. On the contrary Pakistan being an open economy had no such restrictions, thus leaving its market open for Indian manufacturers to export to Pakistan whatever they were manufacturing. Being an open economy Pakistani products even though were superior as they had to compete with international products, the restriction on Indian side on specific products had prevented them to export to India. Rather we were informed that once Late Indra Ghandi had told to the Indian car manufacturers that she would prefer to see the industry closed in India that need even a nut bolt from Pakistan, in response to their request to import some parts from Pakistan, also asse3mbling the same car as was India, being cheaper than Japan.

2. Indian government was heavily subsidizing its industrial electricity as compared to Pakistan that was competitive like Western countries. The average per unit comparative cost of electricity unit in India at the time of study was less than a rupee, whereas in Pakistan it was close to six rupees!

...I think I should stop here with the message that yes any thing whether its trade, sports, negotiation - all is nice if it is fair

Youth Without Borders I read your article Hira. It is nice. I can feel in it the purety of simpleness, from the heart of the teenage who haven`t (and I pray, may never) come accross cruel realities. I remember when Bosnian PM responded to one of the Pakistani journalist. She said, ``we did not knew who we were, as we were living with them like they were, marrying with them and sharing with them, we had forgotton we were Muslims or had any specific identity, morals and values...what just happened has taught us and made us realized...we are Muslims...their hate was so strong that no matter what we did, we were still not one of them....

Most of the Indians are like the Croats, they will talk about Pakistan in not friendly terms, I understand as that is how their ``democratic`` government has brought them up and their media ``programed`` them. Living in Pakistan you or your friend tell me in how many Pakistani dramas or films India is either dragged in or humiliated. I tell you the tone and language used in Indian media for Pakistan is so horrible that you cannot imagine. Since 1977 I promised myself never to see an Indian movie or music, I stand by it today, but I am not bigoted, if go anywhere where a movie is on display or there is some discussion, I do not leave immediately, but do look for an opportunity to leave. India is so full of hate against Pakistan that when they do a ``friendly`` gesture they still hurt either Pakistani pride or Islamic principles or both like veer-zara. Look at their movie`s dialogues, newspapers and magzines and compare them with those in Pakistan you will realize where the real hate lies. They tell me on this happens on both the sides, and I say please distinguish between burning down a complete house and burning an entrace gate of a house in response.

They will talk about democracy in India and martial laws in Pakistan, but will not like to mention that their democracy has helped kill hundreds of thousands of Muslims, raped and kidnapped over the last two decades (millions during the partition) as compare to only select some individual acts against minorities in Pakistan during martial laws. They will try and convince you about Pakistani army going first in Kashmir, but will not mention that in fact Pakistani army had a British General, Gracy who refused to honor Jinnah`s command to go and resist Indian army taking over Kashmir as Indian army was under Lord Mountbatin`s command and Gracy`s first loyalty was with Queen of England`s representative. It was only after formal removal of Gracy that Pakistan Army could go and resist Indian army`s advance and hence creation of LOC. They will speak of Cargil but will remain silent on Siachin and 2 other posts on LOC which they violated first. ...

Let me stop here for I sound horrible telling things against India, on the platform where you just have expressed your gentle feelings - the generation of Hira would think I am telling them not to befriend Indians and am against peace...no, it is not so, I am just warning based on my experiences or is it the experiences of centuries for there must be traitors those helped few Englishmen to take over Pakistan-India subcontinent. Extend your hands for friendship if you want to and I only hope you get sincerity in return, those who befriends you as Muslims and Pakistanis not because in the name of friendship the one who adopts hindu traditions and steps out of their Muslim morals and Pakistani pride, for surely being Hindu, Sikh and Indians is not held against them by us.


My wishes for Kasmiri freedom fighters both physical and political and those who are fighting for them leaving their peaceful homes...they deserve freedom as we deserved from others in 1947.

The Election Burp
The title of article attracted me, so I thought to read it, after first 2 paragraphs it became confusing to me, I live in real world and like to talk in real sense. So my regrets to the author that I am unable to understand in full what she meant to state. Nevertheless, I looked at the replies to know what the discussion is going on about and read #39 rsridhar. First, with due respect to all, please use civil language and try to reason here not abuse. But than if democracy says so that let every one speak his/her mind, so be it, I am not for such democracy which is without respect, reasoning and justice.

Coming to some of the ``facts`` that rsridhar states let me bring him to reality, which the present land India normally keeps away from its citizen (such as maruti is Indian technology not suzuki of Japan).

Pakistan is arguably the most civilized country in the world as far as ancient civilizations are concerned; it is unfortunate that the present generation has been influenced by hollywood and bollywood civilizations which are mere fantasy and does nothing but mislead; the earlier the Pakistanis are out of this influence the better it will be for them. The present land India has no ancient civilizations, its not too old history is all tied to some of the Pakistani civilizations mainly from Harappa. From where people went and settled mostly in the South and some near Delhi.

I have been involved in this discussion few times with Indians, at UNICEF, CPNN and Melbourne University Forums. They have always tried to tell me that Pakistan is only after 1947, I tell them changing the name does not means changing the history, when they do not follow I give them example that if a father change his name today, it does not means that the children will lose parental hood relations. It is the land which is significant not the present names. Iran or Persia they have the same history because the land is the same.

Prior to Harappa in Pakistan, Indus Valley was the known civilization, which cultivated most of international trade relations in the region now comprising of Asia, Europe, China and CIS. It was because of Indus river, part of the present Pakistan, that travelers named the Pakistan-subcontinent as ``India``. Prior to Indus Valley, civilizations of Mehar Garh and Takht Bhai exists which dates back to 6500-8500 BC. Hinduism history is tied with Harappa era, some may argue that traits are found in Mohinjodaro as well, well I want argue – it may or may not be so. But for sure does not go beyond it to Mehar Garh or Takht Bhai.

The present land India has no significant archeological monuments other than build by Muslim rulers, based on which actually Europeans were amazed and decided to have trade relations with them. It was this reality that during partition, it was decided to partition ``India`` into Pakistan and Bharat (see the earlier maps prior to partition and immediate after). However Nehru and Mountbatin opted to select the title ``India``, the history of which really is in Pakistan, to the utmost dismay of Jinnah.

Further, please remember individual acts are not representatives of society at large. Yes when the entire societ is involved, things are bad as mass killings, abductions, etc. In Pakistan against minorities only individuals acts would be seen, in India it is on mass scale, which is diplorable. Anyway this was not the topic of the article, so therefore I feel this articleboard should not be used for these discussion. So ones again my regrets to the writer of this article.

With best wishes.

Iranian Puzzle Thank you 31, 26 and 48 for your replies. I shall ignore 48, for the lack of civil language and can only tell him to either live in Australia or USA to see the TV realities, the add does not take a name of any Indian organization, they say poor children in India and other African countries...the advertising agency is ``Save the Child``!

Netizen, I appreciate your reply as it showed good selection of words and some sense, yes you are right, for if the next 45 years India continue to grow at the pace of 8%, it would be the second largest economy in the world. But you need to keep few realities in mind, no country in the world has thus far able to sustain for that long, and more you develop the less becomes your growth rate. Further, all economics rules start with cetris peribis...and believe me the real world does change. Nevertheless, as I said earlier, if India continued to get leaders such as the present ones, it does have a chance to succeed and be able to look after its population.

Regarding the exchange rate pressure from US on China, it means a little. Remember Economics tells you many things regarding the same issue, and ``learned`` economists make the best by fooling the most through showing only that side of the picture that the audience wants to see. If China today increases its currency value, the USA and other countries will have to pay China a lot more and those countries in debt to China will have to adopt policies that China would like them to adopt, believe me no developed country would like to fall in the trap it made for most of the developing countries.

Who Created Pakistan? Re: # 33
harimau you said “Post-August-1947 events were nothing but a continuation of the British policy of consolidation of power over the subcontinent that was temporarily interrupted in 1857 and suspended indefinitely in 1858….”

Reply: You mean to say that the present land known as India did not got its independence in 1947 rather remained a British colony with British agenda…well said! So when did you got independence for you may say that after Britian it was Soviet control and now USA, I guess?

harimau: ”No, Jinnah and Pakistan would have gotten East Punjab, West Bengal and Assam and then would have either converted the Hindus there by force or expelled them. Also, Jinnah had the brilliant idea of using the Hindu population of Pakistan as hostages for good treatment of Muslims left behind In India. “

If the East Punjab, West Bengal and Assam would have become Pakistan, there would have been peaceful settlement, very few killings and Hindus would have been prosperous in Pakistan like those in Sindh, and Sikhs would have avoided operation Blue Star or 1984 mass killings. The minorities killing on mass scale only happens in India not Pakistan. When the late Pope John Paul landed in Pakistan, he kissed the land and said it is one of the few countries where minorities are protected.

harimau: “Man, what a nut case!”

Please mind your language.

Iranian Puzzle
I am some times amazed when India is spoken about as a giant economic power along with China...well I am still watching advertisements in Australian and US televisions appealing for donations for Indian children - a country that cannot even support its own citizens and lives on donations from other countries should not be labeled as a super power...so please wait till its over 250 million people comes out of poverty line and at least have access to drinking water fit for human consumption. Having said that, yes one must also appreciate that finally the foreighn investment from US and the West is being properly utilized, and India is on the path of recovery - towards stability is still a long road which can be achieved if it keep on getting leaders such as it has at the present times.

Some one commented China is no match to USA or Europe, let me inform that Chinese banks have now stop providing any more credit to USA, as they already owe more than 3 trillion dollars. EU at the moment is seriously discussing how to face Chinese dominance in manufacturing sector for the existing rules does not allow them to enforce higher duties on Chinese products; yes, we may see sooner or later new clauses added from the platform of WTO protecting EU and others from China, could it be in the name of saving employments of local countrymen? Time will tell.

I remember reading Times and Newsweek in late 70s those claimed that soon Iranians would be eating leaves after the Iraqi war and looking to West for support with Ayatollah Kohmeni in command. Well visit Iran today and certainly Iranians have made these reputed journals embarrassed on their forecasting. so Well done Iran!

Who Created Pakistan? Dear Ranjit
First my regards for writing this article, which undeniably brings out some truth. I however, would differ on few points. First, when based on your personal opinion Sardar Patel is being praised for ``orchestrating the almost unimaginable task of so swiftly and decisively integrating over 600 former princely states into the Indian Union, at the time of Independence, in 1947.`` This task was achieved AFTER ACCEPTING THE ORIGINAL POLITICAL PROPOSAL WHICH ALLOWED THESE STATES TO EITHER ACCEPT BEING PART OF PAKISTAN OR INDIA OR REMAIN INDEPENDENT. After declaration by some of the states to remain independent, use of force to make them accept as part of India cannot be regarded as a principled and honourable act, as it was dishonouring their own pledges, agreement and words; ironically it is now being done in the case of Kashmir again.

Secondly, yes Jinnah was disappointed when the boundaries were suggested for had their been no partitions or states becoming part of Pakistan or India, nearly 5 million lives would have been saved out of which more than 2 million Muslim women were the victims kidnapped, dishonoured or killed (the statistics were revealed in Lecture by an Australian Feminist Professor in Melbourne University in 2003); it was heart breaking listening to the surviving victims personally for me in late 60s and early seventies. It was unfortunate that just for the sake of political gains human lives were mercilessly taken away. The same is still being repeated not only in Kashmir, where by Indian statistics 80,000 and Pakistani statistics over 200,000 people have been killed, even in mainland India minorities are being subjected to mass killings on regular basis.

Jinnah wanted a unified country, he even disregarded the idea of united country PM or President, and opted to stay away and let the unified Muslim League and Indian National Congress run the government...it was unfortunate again that INC leaders decided not to share even the fractional ministry seats taken by the Muslim League and declared let there be two countries.

Whatever the history, lets hope we do justice now by putting an end to the misdoings of previous politicians and let “the right is might`` prevail

Adam Smith’s Invisible Hand and Kashmir Dost-mitter
I respect your feelings as they are sincere in their own respect, but let me say the feelings are highly skewed and ignoring the very basic fact - these business relations between Kashmir and India, somewhat forced as you mentioned yourself, are all result of an illegal occupation of a land that does not belong to India. Your previous leaders accepted it and the world knows about it, and even you yourself, am I not true? I wrote before and say here again, if I forcefully take over some one`s...say for example your house and try to project it as my own throwing parties or convert it even in a social activity centre for the benefit of the society poor, and provide a mechanism through which the left over of your family members may even earn their bread...the basic truth will remain the same - I am illegal occupant and justice demands that I should hand it over to the real owners and let them decide how and what to do regarding managing their homeland affairs. Here I recall one of my colleague (Professor by profession) in an international workshop in Melbourne, admitted in a private group conversation...``we know the truth, but cannot support Pakistan in open, you know, for we have done the same...``

...the Aboriginals, Palestinians, Kashmiries, and many others are all struggling...people are not at peace, weak are praying, strong ones struggling, some fighting but not coming to the terms of seemingly mighty ones...you know why, for if the illegal occupants are mighty in force, the freedom fighters are mighty in their self-esteem and will of freedom. Such struggles will go on till the basic justice is done. So please, if you ever see a picture projecting a smiling face of a child in media with a caption that some millitants are trying to take away the smile, think twice before coming to a sympthetic conclusion...for those millitants may be the freedom fighters denied of their rights for living, and the picture a mere distraction to win your sypathies in support of the evil done against the freedom fighters. Have the courage - support the right against the wrong!

Salam friends
In 1997 I had an opportunity to work on educational sector in Punjab. Some of the facts remain still fresh in my minds, which I would like to share here:

1. There is no dearth of scientifically educated people in Pakistan, thousands have benefited from S&T scholarships and obtained PhDs in diverse fields from the best institues in the world. The need however is to benefit from these talented minds and skills, who do want to serve Pakistan but do not have the right opportunities to implement what they have learnt or train the young ones. So it is the investment in the relevant sectors, which is more important at this stage than investing in higher educational institutions, which nevertheless still remains important.

2. I personally believe institutes such as Agha Khan, King Edwards and Fatima Jinnah medical institutes, LUMS - Lahore or IBA – Karachi management institutes, GIK along with Lahore and Karachi engineering universities (UET and NED), or National college of Arts have standards those can match the best in the World. Others institues coming up are not too far away behind. The problem lies not in higher education, rather in technical education. Pakistan needs to worry about their technical institutes both in quantity and quality more than the higher education. All the developed countries in my observation have much higher enrolment in technical education than higher education, and the reason is simple - how many MDs or GMs are required as compared to technical hands those operate machines and equipment in an organization, or build roads and buildings? The reason why China, Japan, or Asian tigers have boomed is because of their technical skills. Even the Ustad, Shagird relations in Pakistan in (motor) mechanics, electrical and electronics could be institutionalised, as the skills of these young ones are second to none in the world in their own field (saying out of my personal experiences in developed countries!)

3. Gradually Pakistan should withdraw over 95 percent subsidization (that was the case way back in 1997) of education in engineering and medical fields, and use the same money to build infrastructure good enough for the doctors to do spend their allotted time in rural areas instead of sitting in big cities and getting salaries, saying there is no proper place to stay or operate or no staff and other tools and equipments. Please don`t take me wrong most of the developed countries, leave aside few couple of countries like Germany, that subsidize more than 50 percent of higher education.

4. The money generated from Iqra sur-charge should be used in either technical institutes or Islamic education where all fiqaas should be taught to the people interested in becoming Imams of the mosques at least till graduation level (4 years following intermediate). Specialization (1-2) years should be offered to those who want to specialize in any one fiqqah, after graduation. This will help in developing harmony and understanding between and among various fiqqahs as well as ensure the Imams are well educated leading the general community.

5. Most of the leading universities of the world allow their professors to go overseas and teach in the developing countries for a semester or so. I personally know many Pakistanis who are eager to come to Pakistan, and as suggested by some of the respondents before me, these professors may be offered special facilities for coming back at `home` especially admission to their young children in elite schools.

6. Pakistan school education is superior to many developed countries school systems, including Australia and USA. With little modification it may be replicated all over Pakistan. The modification suggested is to establish self awareness and self respect, where emphasis may be laid on both Islamic identity and high values and Pakistan`s own rich cultural heritage, which makes it arguably most civilized country in the world (as many as four civilizations existed in Pakistan ancient than 4000 BC).

With regards to Tallat who`s article provided me with this opportunity to expreess my thoughts.

Last Rites in Kashmir or a New Journey? Re: # 315
My pleasure, I am moving on...for no one likes to waste time trying to reason with unreasonables

Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan Re: # 185
Thank you for your `remarkable` interpretation of what I meant and said, and your familiarity with the timings of the hijacking ... read news papers of october after the 9/11 incident you will come to know. I wish I had the clipping, I would love to scan and post it to you. But in any case your tone suggest, I should not be interacting with you any more, so be happy and keep on thinking the way you are, it does hurt, but I think I can live with it at this point in time.
Bye

Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan Re: # 192
Your tone in the text tells me that you are writing what you really believe in and not merely for the sake of discourse. I, therefore feel its time to stop here for the dictionary of reality that you use and the frequency and selection of words that you use is all together different from mine. So lets move on and hope whosoever is going the wrong way may gets the right path.
Bye

Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan Re: # 131
Arjun you will never understand...ok you want to talk about stupidity...how about Indian government which hijacked its own commercial place for almost 40 hours and place it under security at the corner of its airport claming that the Muslim Kashmiri militant have hijacjed it, but when no sound story turned out (bad homework for the drama!)...a simple statement was made :it was a misunderstanding, and that the plane was not hijacked! All this was done to get closer to USA by showing that they are victims like them too under the hands of Muslim extremists! (just a month after 9/11 incident)...you want to learn more stupidities of your government...but before I go on, let me stop, here I am not for tit for tat. I am only here to reason and put forward my own view points so let me go back...

tahmad #132, its not a weakness, rather it is a way of telling the international agencies that you are not to be taken for granted, and that you have your own soverign ways of doing thing - not to react in the way the international agencies want you to act. They want to ridicule you in regards to your justice system, which they have no right to if they are not doing the same with other countries, especially developed countries. Why don’t these agencies take the defence ministers, army generals or commanders of the developed countries for their human and other rights violations? Sorry pick and choose that is strongly biased against our country should not be allowed rather strongly dealt with. We are capable enough for the justice on our own. Yes, nevertheless, I must add here that there is one positive side of this internationalisation - a positive pressure on the justice system, though it has its the darker side too - acting under pressure and in the name of justice doing what the international agencies desire, which may or may not be the true justice.

Towards a more Sustainable Growth of Pakistan Dear friends
Though I am not in touch with current situation, back in 1995-96, I did some research on behalf of an international organization and the leading management univetrsity in Lahore. The agriculture sector from production perspective was not doing bad at all. However, it was infrastructure that was the problem. If I remember correctly the figures were that about 30 percent of the produce during some seasons are wasted because they are not transported to storage places in time and rain and wind damages the harvest.

Secondly, I also had the opportunity to attend Germany`s consultant report to the than Punjab minister in 1989, which stated that Pakistan had potential to generate US2.00 billion alone from mango and mango plup export. Pakistani mangoes were rated as the best in the world with over 100 varities.

I, therefore would suggest that warehouses be constructed at critical junctions so that the existing produce be safe guarded and at the same time fruit market be developed. These are neither capital or technological intensive industries, thus would not only help in basic employment rather would save nearly 30 percent of the produce and earn good foreign exzchange as well.

Further, if you observe Malaysian GDP trend (I worked on it too!) over the last 3 decades, you will note that agricultural contribution has been on decline and that of services and industrial sector on the rise; the faster in the services sector.

Meanwhile, Thanks Usama for the opportunity to express my views in this regard.

Best of wishes

Last Rites in Kashmir or a New Journey?
Mohar, the statistics you are referring to are from the survey conducted by indian press, published at the eve of president Mushraf`s visit...its valadity is questionable...to us for you it may not be. Ok if you indians are so sure, why not to have plebesite under neutral observation? Give it a go every thing will come in black and white, and you should not be afraid as you say Kashmiris have learnt!
Regarding the other two responces, including that of you mohar, I feel sorry, for education, culture and values do not permit me to go this level. Better behave, get real and talk sense.