Preventing More Lal Masjids
Dost:
As expected, Tahmed disingenuously deflected and parried from your principal assertions. For example,
“…I think we are in agreement then that in traditional hindu and muslim societies, cross-religion marriages were frowned upon…btw, this is not just a hindu-muslim thing: this transtion is true for all human societies…”
That was not your point at all. Your principal point was that resistance to a Muslim girl marrying Hindu boy is so severe that there are no cases that one can recollect. Tahmed conveniently ducked the issue.
``“…Your question implies that you think that if there was such a couple in Pakistan they would be killed - so now it is my turn to ask if you can provide me of a single such case….”
As Masanmuthu has already noted, this is a `brilliant` response. Your whole point was to use that as an example to point out that this never happens. Instead, of admitting the obvious, Tahmed turns the question back to you? How foolish can one get?
“…I used to have a jewish roommate whose sister wanted to marry a roman catholic boy - and he would have terrible (and expensive) telephone fights with his mother over the phone, since she absolutely rejected the match on account of religion. And of course the sister ended up marrying anyway….”
And the point is...? Answer: no point at all. Is the `Jewish sister` still alive? Is she still accepted by her family? Would the same be true if she was Muslim? Tahmed is silent on all this.
“…How many hindus on chowk are so dedicated to condemning the caste system? answer: zero…”
Several, including Dost Mittar and self. Besides, in a democratic system, what counts is action through the law and not empty rhetoric on Chowk. Where it matters, either through Constitution-sanctioned reservations, elections, etc. the intent and approach to the caste system is clear. Dost-Mittar`s point was about how many Muslims in positions of authority have condemned Jihad. Specifically, his question that remains unanswered is, `Now, could you please tell me which prominent Muslim has condemned the concepts of violent jihad, blasphemy or dar-ul-harb as jahilya of seventh century, which ought to be buried in the contemporary world?` Hamidm is not one such person, and neither am I or Dost Mittar. Asking us to condemn caste system, jihad, blasphemy or dar-ul-harb is not the same as asking prominent people to do the same. In the case of the caste system, the record in India of 60 years of nearly oppressive affirmative action is in sharp contrast to the condemnation of jihad, blasphemy or dar-ul-harb.
“…What was lal masjid about?...”
It was about the Chinese response to the kidnapping of Chinese parlor girls. Until then, Musharraf ignored the Shamim case, the burning of books/CDs, the kidnapping of government officials, etc. So, you are deluding yourself if you think that it was inspired to preserve the rule of law and all the other nonsense that Musharraf mouths.
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 15, 2007 07:20 am
Re: # 671 TahmedDost:
As expected, Tahmed disingenuously deflected and parried from your principal assertions. For example,
“…I think we are in agreement then that in traditional hindu and muslim societies, cross-religion marriages were frowned upon…btw, this is not just a hindu-muslim thing: this transtion is true for all human societies…”
That was not your point at all. Your principal point was that resistance to a Muslim girl marrying Hindu boy is so severe that there are no cases that one can recollect. Tahmed conveniently ducked the issue.
``“…Your question implies that you think that if there was such a couple in Pakistan they would be killed - so now it is my turn to ask if you can provide me of a single such case….”
As Masanmuthu has already noted, this is a `brilliant` response. Your whole point was to use that as an example to point out that this never happens. Instead, of admitting the obvious, Tahmed turns the question back to you? How foolish can one get?
“…I used to have a jewish roommate whose sister wanted to marry a roman catholic boy - and he would have terrible (and expensive) telephone fights with his mother over the phone, since she absolutely rejected the match on account of religion. And of course the sister ended up marrying anyway….”
And the point is...? Answer: no point at all. Is the `Jewish sister` still alive? Is she still accepted by her family? Would the same be true if she was Muslim? Tahmed is silent on all this.
“…How many hindus on chowk are so dedicated to condemning the caste system? answer: zero…”
Several, including Dost Mittar and self. Besides, in a democratic system, what counts is action through the law and not empty rhetoric on Chowk. Where it matters, either through Constitution-sanctioned reservations, elections, etc. the intent and approach to the caste system is clear. Dost-Mittar`s point was about how many Muslims in positions of authority have condemned Jihad. Specifically, his question that remains unanswered is, `Now, could you please tell me which prominent Muslim has condemned the concepts of violent jihad, blasphemy or dar-ul-harb as jahilya of seventh century, which ought to be buried in the contemporary world?` Hamidm is not one such person, and neither am I or Dost Mittar. Asking us to condemn caste system, jihad, blasphemy or dar-ul-harb is not the same as asking prominent people to do the same. In the case of the caste system, the record in India of 60 years of nearly oppressive affirmative action is in sharp contrast to the condemnation of jihad, blasphemy or dar-ul-harb.
“…What was lal masjid about?...”
It was about the Chinese response to the kidnapping of Chinese parlor girls. Until then, Musharraf ignored the Shamim case, the burning of books/CDs, the kidnapping of government officials, etc. So, you are deluding yourself if you think that it was inspired to preserve the rule of law and all the other nonsense that Musharraf mouths.
Preventing More Lal Masjids
``...Mr. tahmed always responds...``
Not true. He can`t stand my nick and my my lucid logic! He rarely responds to me. And if he does, it is in an off-handed, deliberately indirect manner.
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 15, 2007 06:19 am
Re: # 664 Dost``...Mr. tahmed always responds...``
Not true. He can`t stand my nick and my my lucid logic! He rarely responds to me. And if he does, it is in an off-handed, deliberately indirect manner.
Preventing More Lal Masjids
As the bombers return to Britain, Hassan Butt, who was once a member of radical group Al-Muhajiroun, raising funds for extremists and calling for attacks on British citizens, explains why he was wrong
Sunday July 1, 2007
The Observer
When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network, a series of semi-autonomous British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology, I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.
By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the `Blair`s bombs` line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 14, 2007 08:23 pm
My plea to fellow Muslims: you must renounce terrorAs the bombers return to Britain, Hassan Butt, who was once a member of radical group Al-Muhajiroun, raising funds for extremists and calling for attacks on British citizens, explains why he was wrong
Sunday July 1, 2007
The Observer
When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network, a series of semi-autonomous British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology, I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.
By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the `Blair`s bombs` line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.
Countering Our Very Own Frankenstein
As the bombers return to Britain, Hassan Butt, who was once a member of radical group Al-Muhajiroun, raising funds for extremists and calling for attacks on British citizens, explains why he was wrong
Sunday July 1, 2007
The Observer
When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network, a series of semi-autonomous British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology, I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.
By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the `Blair`s bombs` line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 14, 2007 08:21 pm
My plea to fellow Muslims: you must renounce terrorAs the bombers return to Britain, Hassan Butt, who was once a member of radical group Al-Muhajiroun, raising funds for extremists and calling for attacks on British citizens, explains why he was wrong
Sunday July 1, 2007
The Observer
When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network, a series of semi-autonomous British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology, I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.
By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the `Blair`s bombs` line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.
A Letter To President Musharraf
Ignore Tahmed`s asinine response, and check out:
``If the threat of a government fall was the only thing holding Washington back in 2005, and now that the fall is imminent through no action of the United States, what does Washington have to gain from restraining itself any further?
This is more than a rhetorical question. The relative inactivity of al Qaeda these past six years, as well as the political situation in Pakistan, has imposed a shaky equilibrium on the issue. Al Qaeda`s security protocols curtail al Qaeda`s threat level, and that has allowed the United States to shelve the issue for another day. Meanwhile, the instability of Musharraf`s government limits the United States` ability to pressure Islamabad over the issue of al Qaeda. Consequently, al Qaeda has been more or less hiding in plain sight.
Alter any aspect of this scenario -- in this case, drastically increase the tottering of the Musharraf government -- and the ``stability`` of the other pieces immediately breaks and the United States is forced to surge assets into Pakistan.``
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 14, 2007 07:48 pm
Re: # 162 Arjun `Analyst predicts US military strike in Waziristan`Ignore Tahmed`s asinine response, and check out:
``If the threat of a government fall was the only thing holding Washington back in 2005, and now that the fall is imminent through no action of the United States, what does Washington have to gain from restraining itself any further?
This is more than a rhetorical question. The relative inactivity of al Qaeda these past six years, as well as the political situation in Pakistan, has imposed a shaky equilibrium on the issue. Al Qaeda`s security protocols curtail al Qaeda`s threat level, and that has allowed the United States to shelve the issue for another day. Meanwhile, the instability of Musharraf`s government limits the United States` ability to pressure Islamabad over the issue of al Qaeda. Consequently, al Qaeda has been more or less hiding in plain sight.
Alter any aspect of this scenario -- in this case, drastically increase the tottering of the Musharraf government -- and the ``stability`` of the other pieces immediately breaks and the United States is forced to surge assets into Pakistan.``
Preventing More Lal Masjids
Bravo!
``P.S. I will be disappointed if you don`t add me to your list of Hate Pandits.``
The term of endearment is pandit-hate (whatever that means)!
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 14, 2007 07:26 pm
Re: # 657 DostBravo!
``P.S. I will be disappointed if you don`t add me to your list of Hate Pandits.``
The term of endearment is pandit-hate (whatever that means)!
Preventing More Lal Masjids
As expected, you failed (deliberately perhaps?) to understand Dost-Mittar`s point which was that, `Any Hindu who says that Ram and Krishna were an incarnation of God can be asked by another Hindu to get lost without any danger to his health; can you say the same thing about any Muslim who says to another Muslim that Mohammad was a fraud? `
The fact that thousands regularly convert out of Hinduism is testament to the fact that no sword of Damocles (sanctioned by a religious book, I might add) that hangs over their heads. Try publicly disavowing Islam. You know the reaction. Instead, by choosing not to understand his original question, you shifted the debate to a different matter. Individual family members responding to marriages (and by the way, even Jinnah never remained close to his daughter Dina after she married a Parsi) is not the same as legally sanctioning apostasy.
If as you claim, `Its just that there is no burning issue with being a muslim (as in case of low caste hindus), so why should we expect people to give up a part of their identity?` then why do all, repeat all Islamic countries make apostasy punishable by death? If they are so secure and self-confident, why not revoke the law?
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 14, 2007 04:17 pm
Re: # 649 TahmedAs expected, you failed (deliberately perhaps?) to understand Dost-Mittar`s point which was that, `Any Hindu who says that Ram and Krishna were an incarnation of God can be asked by another Hindu to get lost without any danger to his health; can you say the same thing about any Muslim who says to another Muslim that Mohammad was a fraud? `
The fact that thousands regularly convert out of Hinduism is testament to the fact that no sword of Damocles (sanctioned by a religious book, I might add) that hangs over their heads. Try publicly disavowing Islam. You know the reaction. Instead, by choosing not to understand his original question, you shifted the debate to a different matter. Individual family members responding to marriages (and by the way, even Jinnah never remained close to his daughter Dina after she married a Parsi) is not the same as legally sanctioning apostasy.
If as you claim, `Its just that there is no burning issue with being a muslim (as in case of low caste hindus), so why should we expect people to give up a part of their identity?` then why do all, repeat all Islamic countries make apostasy punishable by death? If they are so secure and self-confident, why not revoke the law?
A Letter To President Musharraf
Ah! Yet one delectable outcome resulting from Partition: Indian Muslims vs. Paki Muslims.
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 14, 2007 10:19 am
Re: # 123Ah! Yet one delectable outcome resulting from Partition: Indian Muslims vs. Paki Muslims.
A Letter To President Musharraf
I was gloating? Really?
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 14, 2007 10:17 am
Re: # 118 HamidmI was gloating? Really?
A Letter To President Musharraf
``...i am not refering to the leadership......i am refering to the followership.......the followership is quite poor..``
Carefully read #114 again. Especially the part that states,``In England, seven out of the eight people detained in the latest plot are Muslim doctors or medical students. Doctors plotting mass murder? Could that be?``
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 14, 2007 09:42 am
Re: # 115 Bulleya``...i am not refering to the leadership......i am refering to the followership.......the followership is quite poor..``
Carefully read #114 again. Especially the part that states,``In England, seven out of the eight people detained in the latest plot are Muslim doctors or medical students. Doctors plotting mass murder? Could that be?``
A Letter To President Musharraf
``...I keep hearing this logic of poverty behind religious militancy. How many high profile religious terrorists are poor. ..``
Amen! Here is what others say:
``Of course, not all Muslims are terrorists. But it`s been widely noted that virtually all suicide terrorists today are Muslims. Angry Norwegians aren`t doing this — nor are starving Africans or unemployed Mexicans. Muslims have got to understand that a death cult has taken root in the bosom of their religion, feeding off it like a cancerous tumor.
This cancer is erasing basic norms of civilization. In Iraq, we`ve seen suicide bombers blow up funerals and schools. In England, seven out of the eight people detained in the latest plot are Muslim doctors or medical students. Doctors plotting mass murder? Could that be? If Muslim leaders don`t remove this cancer — and only they can — it will spread, tainting innocent Muslims and poisoning their relations with each other and the world.``
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 14, 2007 09:31 am
Re: # 67 HNK``...I keep hearing this logic of poverty behind religious militancy. How many high profile religious terrorists are poor. ..``
Amen! Here is what others say:
``Of course, not all Muslims are terrorists. But it`s been widely noted that virtually all suicide terrorists today are Muslims. Angry Norwegians aren`t doing this — nor are starving Africans or unemployed Mexicans. Muslims have got to understand that a death cult has taken root in the bosom of their religion, feeding off it like a cancerous tumor.
This cancer is erasing basic norms of civilization. In Iraq, we`ve seen suicide bombers blow up funerals and schools. In England, seven out of the eight people detained in the latest plot are Muslim doctors or medical students. Doctors plotting mass murder? Could that be? If Muslim leaders don`t remove this cancer — and only they can — it will spread, tainting innocent Muslims and poisoning their relations with each other and the world.``
A Letter To President Musharraf
The red mosque is a stones throw away from the ISI headquarters. What is more, a number of ISI staff are said to offer their prayers on its premises regularly. Was our intelligence agency not aware of how these weapons and rockets were procured by the mullahs at the red mosque? Were our intelligence officers really that busy invading the personal life of the CJ and other officials, however corrupt they may be? If mosques and madrassah’s in the CAPITAL that are situated in the shadow of our intelligence force cannot be controlled, how do you hope to control similar monsters across the country?
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 13, 2007 01:30 pm
In the article, this paragraph aptly summarizes that the rest of the world is asking Musharraf:The red mosque is a stones throw away from the ISI headquarters. What is more, a number of ISI staff are said to offer their prayers on its premises regularly. Was our intelligence agency not aware of how these weapons and rockets were procured by the mullahs at the red mosque? Were our intelligence officers really that busy invading the personal life of the CJ and other officials, however corrupt they may be? If mosques and madrassah’s in the CAPITAL that are situated in the shadow of our intelligence force cannot be controlled, how do you hope to control similar monsters across the country?
Preventing More Lal Masjids
Thanks. I thought as much. Tahmed`s unilateral interpretation is quite at odds with Koranic teachings as commonly understood by many. Dost-Mittar has not bothered to respond, in part, because I believe that he has traversed this ground many times in the past on Chowk with janaab Tahmed, that he is not hopeful that more rhetoric will sway opinions (regardless of what the facts might state).
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 13, 2007 11:43 am
Re: # 598 Zeemax, # 602 UrstrulyThanks. I thought as much. Tahmed`s unilateral interpretation is quite at odds with Koranic teachings as commonly understood by many. Dost-Mittar has not bothered to respond, in part, because I believe that he has traversed this ground many times in the past on Chowk with janaab Tahmed, that he is not hopeful that more rhetoric will sway opinions (regardless of what the facts might state).
Preventing More Lal Masjids
``...And what I keep bringing up, i.e. ``individual responsibility to God`` (which is the obverse side of ``no compulsion in religion`` is in fact the central tenet of Islam, also made very clear in the Quran....``
Dost-Mittar, Urstruly, Zeemax, Hamidm, Masadi, et al:
Do you all agree with the statement in quotes? Or is Tahmed smoking something?
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 13, 2007 10:27 am
Re: # 561 Tahmed``...And what I keep bringing up, i.e. ``individual responsibility to God`` (which is the obverse side of ``no compulsion in religion`` is in fact the central tenet of Islam, also made very clear in the Quran....``
Dost-Mittar, Urstruly, Zeemax, Hamidm, Masadi, et al:
Do you all agree with the statement in quotes? Or is Tahmed smoking something?
Preventing More Lal Masjids
Can you please translate?
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 13, 2007 06:28 am
Re: # 548 DostCan you please translate?
Preventing More Lal Masjids
Nope. Responding to the way you did to Arjunm+Alephnull is.
I didn`t ask for a response for you.
Posted by
PewResearch
Jul 13, 2007 06:25 am
Re: # 546Nope. Responding to the way you did to Arjunm+Alephnull is.
I didn`t ask for a response for you.
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