Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
In previous post, the statement should be corrected to: `Would Nehru/Patel ever buy into a plan without knowing the details of the constitutional framework?`
Posted by
PewResearch
May 18, 2007 05:57 am
Re: # 254In previous post, the statement should be corrected to: `Would Nehru/Patel ever buy into a plan without knowing the details of the constitutional framework?`
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
``...the real reason why those who view history from the Congress lens balk at the Cabinet Mission Plan is because the plan would have created a strong opposition to the centralised vision of the Congress...``
Baloney, bullshit and hogwash with a YLH brand label to boot. The real reason most Indians (and not just `those who view history from the Congress lens`) balk at the Cabinet Mission Plan is because religion-based votes were and remain unprecedented in any major country in the world. The imbecility of this proposal, that would have frozen communal divides in time forever and made them permanent, and a lack of important details, is what is so egregious. Add to that Jinnah`s ill-defined post-Independence vision (something from which the land of the pure still suffers) and the fact that for a newly emerging country, the state monopoly on the use of force was an absolute must, is what was deficient in the Cabinet Mission Plan. Pakistan still has not been able to integrate NWFP, and its Army still not able to control areas in NWFP. The writ of the state does not run there and the Taliban have established the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan` - a de facto nation state.
Decentralization has occurred in India today, because the Indian Constitution allows it with its federal structure, and Bulleya will attest that India`s diversity makes it virtually impossible to return to the heady days of Congress of the 60s and the 70s. It took less than 40 years after Independence for the Congress monopoly to be irrevocably broken. There was a need for unity of struggle against the British superpower. Now that that power is broken, Congress` services are no longer needed and the monopoly is gone, forever.
Jinnah based his campaign on religious-based identity - the Cabinet Mission Plan was a difficult pill even for him to swallow. He neither campaigned for it consistently nor from the outset. His late conversion to it was seen as one of convenience. This, combined with a lack of vision on post-Independence Pakistan, was a recipe for disaster as `71 so eloquently proved.
Would you ever buy a house without inspecting it fully? Would Warren Buffet every buy a company without doing a full audit and due diligence? Would Nehru/Jinnah ever buy into a plan without knowing what the details of the constitutional framework? The little that was available from Jinnah`s public utterances spoke overwhelmingly on religion-based identity. His fragmentary vision of anything different was not to be spoken briefly until Aug. 11, `47. Too little, too late.
Rejection of the Cabinet Mission Plan was necessary surgery of amputation that a cancer patient has sometimes to undergo. You guys can keep figuring out how to run your national affairs, but you are so messed up that it is doubtful that you will join the world in a meaningful way as a productive, modern nation fully integrated with the world.
CIAO
Posted by
PewResearch
May 18, 2007 05:42 am
Re: # 253 Manto``...the real reason why those who view history from the Congress lens balk at the Cabinet Mission Plan is because the plan would have created a strong opposition to the centralised vision of the Congress...``
Baloney, bullshit and hogwash with a YLH brand label to boot. The real reason most Indians (and not just `those who view history from the Congress lens`) balk at the Cabinet Mission Plan is because religion-based votes were and remain unprecedented in any major country in the world. The imbecility of this proposal, that would have frozen communal divides in time forever and made them permanent, and a lack of important details, is what is so egregious. Add to that Jinnah`s ill-defined post-Independence vision (something from which the land of the pure still suffers) and the fact that for a newly emerging country, the state monopoly on the use of force was an absolute must, is what was deficient in the Cabinet Mission Plan. Pakistan still has not been able to integrate NWFP, and its Army still not able to control areas in NWFP. The writ of the state does not run there and the Taliban have established the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan` - a de facto nation state.
Decentralization has occurred in India today, because the Indian Constitution allows it with its federal structure, and Bulleya will attest that India`s diversity makes it virtually impossible to return to the heady days of Congress of the 60s and the 70s. It took less than 40 years after Independence for the Congress monopoly to be irrevocably broken. There was a need for unity of struggle against the British superpower. Now that that power is broken, Congress` services are no longer needed and the monopoly is gone, forever.
Jinnah based his campaign on religious-based identity - the Cabinet Mission Plan was a difficult pill even for him to swallow. He neither campaigned for it consistently nor from the outset. His late conversion to it was seen as one of convenience. This, combined with a lack of vision on post-Independence Pakistan, was a recipe for disaster as `71 so eloquently proved.
Would you ever buy a house without inspecting it fully? Would Warren Buffet every buy a company without doing a full audit and due diligence? Would Nehru/Jinnah ever buy into a plan without knowing what the details of the constitutional framework? The little that was available from Jinnah`s public utterances spoke overwhelmingly on religion-based identity. His fragmentary vision of anything different was not to be spoken briefly until Aug. 11, `47. Too little, too late.
Rejection of the Cabinet Mission Plan was necessary surgery of amputation that a cancer patient has sometimes to undergo. You guys can keep figuring out how to run your national affairs, but you are so messed up that it is doubtful that you will join the world in a meaningful way as a productive, modern nation fully integrated with the world.
CIAO
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
``...I am quite amazed how such an extremely diverse country like India can remain one country....``
Write a book on India in the next 30 days!. If you don`t you will be so utterly confused by India`s diversity that it will be impossible to write one later. That is the advice given by the Chairman of Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry to visiting Western journalists. At least, write an article for Chowk on your travels.
Posted by
PewResearch
May 17, 2007 03:15 pm
Re: # 241 Bulleya``...I am quite amazed how such an extremely diverse country like India can remain one country....``
Write a book on India in the next 30 days!. If you don`t you will be so utterly confused by India`s diversity that it will be impossible to write one later. That is the advice given by the Chairman of Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry to visiting Western journalists. At least, write an article for Chowk on your travels.
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
Posted by
PewResearch
May 16, 2007 03:55 pm
Actually, YLH may well be right! His ideas on tolerance and 2-votes/person, crazy they may be, are working. Pakistani Christians, overawed by the tolerance exhibited by their Muslim brothers are actively demanding implementation of YLH`s ideas! I was wrong all along.
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
You are missing the point that in the next 7 years, India will lift the equivalent of 4 Pakistan`s out of poverty!`` And guess what? India did it without your fantastic theories of separate electorates and 1000-person assemblies! (Actually, according to your `wonderful` calculations, India will need a 7000+ assembly, right?)
Posted by
PewResearch
May 16, 2007 10:19 am
Re: # 212 YLHYou are missing the point that in the next 7 years, India will lift the equivalent of 4 Pakistan`s out of poverty!`` And guess what? India did it without your fantastic theories of separate electorates and 1000-person assemblies! (Actually, according to your `wonderful` calculations, India will need a 7000+ assembly, right?)
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
``..Pakistan should be what a majority of people of the country want.......If they want an athiest state that is what it should be........If they want a theocracy that is what it should be...... ``
Absolutely right!
Posted by
PewResearch
May 16, 2007 10:13 am
Re: # 220 Bulleya``..Pakistan should be what a majority of people of the country want.......If they want an athiest state that is what it should be........If they want a theocracy that is what it should be...... ``
Absolutely right!
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
``...though it based on the principle of community empowerment. It proposes three principles...``
Look, your sidekick Kaalchakra is not going to invest a single naya paisa in the KSE based upon your abstract theories. He will offer empty words and condolences, but not material support. That effectively sums up the strength of your ideas. Motivated you are, but a serious change agent, you are not. How many years has it been since your rump state was formed? 60? And you guys are still debating fringe issues on paper. That is why your goose is cooked and you are all effed up!
Posted by
PewResearch
May 16, 2007 10:10 am
Re: # 212 Manto``...though it based on the principle of community empowerment. It proposes three principles...``
Look, your sidekick Kaalchakra is not going to invest a single naya paisa in the KSE based upon your abstract theories. He will offer empty words and condolences, but not material support. That effectively sums up the strength of your ideas. Motivated you are, but a serious change agent, you are not. How many years has it been since your rump state was formed? 60? And you guys are still debating fringe issues on paper. That is why your goose is cooked and you are all effed up!
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
``...Straight people being a minority may require protection in Pashtoon areas, gays elsewhere...``
Good point! And the same applies to the Jamia Hafsa dykes. Islamabad should be allowed the same privilege.
Posted by
PewResearch
May 16, 2007 04:48 am
Re: # 208 Majumdar``...Straight people being a minority may require protection in Pashtoon areas, gays elsewhere...``
Good point! And the same applies to the Jamia Hafsa dykes. Islamabad should be allowed the same privilege.
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
``...1000 seats… Two votes per person: Religious (including sectarian) identity, Linguistic identity...``
Written like only a worthy inheritor of Jinnah`s legacy could write with his fantastic theories of religious-affiliation based electorates. Are you fkking crazy? Does any national parliament in the world have 1000 members in a single house? I believe that even India has no more than 550 in the lower house (Lok Sabha). For a rump state of 140 million, 1000+ member assembly is ridiculous. It is not practical. Rather than create new laws and structures, just implement the the few remaining impartial ones better.
Posted by
PewResearch
May 16, 2007 04:44 am
Re: # 200 YKH``...1000 seats… Two votes per person: Religious (including sectarian) identity, Linguistic identity...``
Written like only a worthy inheritor of Jinnah`s legacy could write with his fantastic theories of religious-affiliation based electorates. Are you fkking crazy? Does any national parliament in the world have 1000 members in a single house? I believe that even India has no more than 550 in the lower house (Lok Sabha). For a rump state of 140 million, 1000+ member assembly is ridiculous. It is not practical. Rather than create new laws and structures, just implement the the few remaining impartial ones better.
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
``...the victory by Mayawati, a dalit school teacher, is being hailed precisely because of the recognition of the minority status....``
WRONG! Her support is from a group that can hardly be called a minority
Posted by
PewResearch
May 16, 2007 04:38 am
Re: # 197 YLH``...the victory by Mayawati, a dalit school teacher, is being hailed precisely because of the recognition of the minority status....``
WRONG! Her support is from a group that can hardly be called a minority
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
``...leader who FORCES his followers to sing EVERYDAY...``
OK, now you have completely blown your credibility. You had your chance to redeem yourself, but you blew it. Since when did Gandhi put a gun on his `followers` to `force` them to sing everyday? Did it ever cross your mind that the `followers` may have been present of their own free will? You have no clue on how to prove a clinching argument. Go, learn something and come back. Until then, you are unworthy of debate.
Posted by
PewResearch
May 15, 2007 07:59 pm
Re: # 183 Kaal``...leader who FORCES his followers to sing EVERYDAY...``
OK, now you have completely blown your credibility. You had your chance to redeem yourself, but you blew it. Since when did Gandhi put a gun on his `followers` to `force` them to sing everyday? Did it ever cross your mind that the `followers` may have been present of their own free will? You have no clue on how to prove a clinching argument. Go, learn something and come back. Until then, you are unworthy of debate.
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
Aah! A breath of fresh air. Can you prove what you just wrote? `Gandhi bigotry - the insistence that others must live by OUR values.`? Your hot air on investing in the KSE has been just exposed. Be forewarned, I don`t fall easily for sloganeering.
Posted by
PewResearch
May 15, 2007 11:34 am
Re: # 173 KaalAah! A breath of fresh air. Can you prove what you just wrote? `Gandhi bigotry - the insistence that others must live by OUR values.`? Your hot air on investing in the KSE has been just exposed. Be forewarned, I don`t fall easily for sloganeering.
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
Thanks for confirming my statement in #155 that, `There is not much of a `liberal Pakistani` class left.`
Posted by
PewResearch
May 15, 2007 11:30 am
Re: # 169 Rafi AamerThanks for confirming my statement in #155 that, `There is not much of a `liberal Pakistani` class left.`
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
So, you won`t put money in the KSE, and are venting hot air.
Posted by
PewResearch
May 15, 2007 11:10 am
Re: # 168 KaalSo, you won`t put money in the KSE, and are venting hot air.
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
``let`s hope some Pakistanis rise up to save my already totally nonexistent reputation on Chowk``
Why are you so obsessed with having your `reputation saved by Pakistanis on Chowk`? Why can`t you save it on your own merits? Is that why your pal YLH keeps calling out for you in the ether to save his butt?
Posted by
PewResearch
May 15, 2007 11:03 am
Re: # 164 Kaal``let`s hope some Pakistanis rise up to save my already totally nonexistent reputation on Chowk``
Why are you so obsessed with having your `reputation saved by Pakistanis on Chowk`? Why can`t you save it on your own merits? Is that why your pal YLH keeps calling out for you in the ether to save his butt?
Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan
``Jinnah`s vision of a minority-empowered society``
That is non-existent too. You see, Jinnah`s vision based upon Muslim majority, assumed that they would guard minority rights better than Hindus would. You know how self-contradictory and deluded that `vision` was, don`t you, by now? Or are you so completely suckered like YLH?
Let us put words aside: Will you put money on the KSE? Be honest. If you won`t, then you are venting hot air.
Posted by
PewResearch
May 15, 2007 11:00 am
Re: # 164 Kaal``Jinnah`s vision of a minority-empowered society``
That is non-existent too. You see, Jinnah`s vision based upon Muslim majority, assumed that they would guard minority rights better than Hindus would. You know how self-contradictory and deluded that `vision` was, don`t you, by now? Or are you so completely suckered like YLH?
Let us put words aside: Will you put money on the KSE? Be honest. If you won`t, then you are venting hot air.
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