Wag the Tail TRUE story - I once hosted a guy from Saudi studying at local university. He disliked dogs soooo much and didn`t want to be around them at all - lots of the local kids got on him about it and tried to show him how loyal and wonderful dogs can be. So he started telling the following joke - why don`t Saudi`s like or buy dogs as pets? We don`t need them, we have dirty indo-asians to fill that role! HA HA HA HA - The great Ummah busted!

Kingdom Come WHAT are you talking about? was this a hallucination or demon possession talks of drinking blood and all? Unbelievable anyone can get away with posting such rubbish!

Quest-- its all about the journey How can anyone live and believe they are in a cage with only meaningless, unrewarding end?
Life is not at all meaningless.
Your every breath shows God has great purpose for you.
Would God create people just to cuz He had nothing else to do or wanted something to play with?
Does not even a man who “creates” a son believe that childs life has purpose and meaning and his own life has more meaning because of child?
How much more God the Original and Supreme Creator must have given man, the children He created, great purpose and meaning.
Get a grip, dude! There is no need to wander around in futility.
Your quest and the REAL journey of understanding the meaning of life will start when you meet God.
God will lead you out of the cage thru journey to afterlife with Him when you seek to know His glory and use time and talents He gave you. And it’s a GREAT journey!

Looking Back, Thinking Ahead.. hmmmm....abuses? you are saying you get in screaming matches and or slapped around and this is what you call loving blissful marriage? you think then giving in for sex means everything is ok and can be forgotten? this is not love, it is sickness and dillusional living! Yes, God bless you.

\'Sustainable peace through more killing\'? Seems you are keen on Eisenhower. You do know he only promoted peace after becoming a well-known war hero and that`s the reason he became a US President? Maybe both Israel and Hezbollah need to get war out of their systems before promoting peace too.

What are you personally doing to promote peace where you live? It seems you would give all the land back to Palestinians even tho it was not all theirs before 1948 - and you also don`t present any peaceful solution for the Israeli`s who have lived there since beginning of time too. Even if there is a buffer zone this won`t maintain peace if each side continues to say I want this piece of land and you only get that. Even with treaties signed before wars have broken out - so a buffer zone is no solution. Can people on either side take the land with them when they pass on? So it is clear what is wanted most is the ``piece`` and NOT ``peace`` or this woulda ended long time ago..................but sometimes divine prophecies just need to get fulfilled!

Anyway, if you are seriously interested in peace and love Eisenhower so much then you should have no problem joining his “peace legacy” – People to People International…… and working to set up and maintain chapters through out Pakistan.....or joining or helping set up wherever in USA or world you live. So far there are only two chapters in Pakistan set up in just the past few years – in Gurjanwala and now outside Islamabad. Mary Eisenhower, yes Ike’s granddaughter and now President of PtPI and Herman Brooks Managing Director of International Operations would LOVE to speak with you…www.ptpi.org

Waiting for Enlightenment it is clear masadi has problem with most everyone posting - lchaim, nandam, ranjit - no one can say anything without his followup ranting.

As for books, 6billion people on the planet and only in the top 100,000 - not the top 10 or 100 or even 1000? how arrogant to think this is an achievement! then he posts a bit on chowk and thinks he got a following! Many universities have 100,000 students or more who all read many books, but would anyone say that everything they read they wanted to or learned something from it? I read lots books and otherwise but that don`t mean I agree always with what`s written.....I also buy books I never get around to reading or stop reading part way and wish I never bought. And who says I never read your book OR wrote a book? If I had I would not be stupid enough to post on here that its not a top 10 but a top 100,000! Totally laughable.

But obviously masadi doesn`t read because he says there were no ?s but my #49 post and #43 post BOTH begin with obvious ? marks and therefore questions - but he says there were none. Its easy to ignore or refuse to answer but even funnier how he can only again and again and last in BOLD even show ignorance by refusing to read what he even write/copies- the PEOPLE thought Jesus was going to Jerusalem to set up His kingdom. NOT Jesus. Once again, because they thought this Jesus told the parable to explain that He was never going to set up a kingdom at that time, but at the end of this age - the generation of mankind - as you pull out of the air illogically but supports the Luke parable perfectly! Ahumdiallah!! But Masadi also don`t understand that as he wants to box words into one meaning. Neither the Koran or the Bible do that, but both often use words for many meanings - so one has to understand the flow and context to know the meaning - such as Adam meaning the man OR all mankind, Day could refer to creation or judgment day, people often used for believer or non-believer, etc etc. Rest assured I surely won`t ever buy any book you write cuz obvious you can`t follow your own writings and train of thought, much less try to explain books like the Bible and Koran.

If as Islam teaches God sends ALL people into life as INNOCENT beings - then how can it be illogical that an innocent person is killed? Isn`t the whole goal of a muslim to get back to innocent nature after falling away or being led astray? So if God requires submission to attain innocence then why logically would He NOT send an innocent who could remain totally submitted and innocent as the perfect example how to live? If God is capable of all things as Islam claims then this is not illogical, but MOST logical for Him to say the only way to show man how to live perfect innocent submission is for Me to come down and example for them?

The original article outlined how religion isn`t doing a thing for Pakistan and you claim there is no place for a thread to carry on theological argumentation - then you can`t stop arguing religion with everyone - once again HAHAHAHAHAH! I come back for a good laugh every few days.

But seriously, once again your need is to stop ranting and simply READ and humble yourself as Allah requires and pray understanding of what is written....maybe then when you write a book it will make the top 10 amazon - you know what makes the top 10 EVERY list world-wide - the BIBLE written by God - so its a book everyone should definitely be reading.

Waiting for Enlightenment Masadi, I can only say it is most interesting to me that you never actually answered any of the questions I posed.

The article is posing the issue of the dichotomy of Pakistan being built on religious overtones that are supposed to be superior and questioning why this, even with Musharraf’s enlightened views of Islam, does not ever seem to move Pakistan forward. My postings were simply to present a rebuttal about another posting that seemed to say the same thing but made it even worse by saying that in Islam peace is to be attained thru violence and war –and without that Pakistan will not go anywhere.

What I presented was the true concept of peace as found thru Jesus, who can today be seen as part of both Islam and yes Christianity. If the article is about religion being distorted, then how can you suggest it improper that editors would not allow religious discussion and someone would try to clarify how the religion became distorted which is affecting Pakistan – the whole point of the article. For you to pose this illogical statement can only amaze me!

Next this latest answer you gave #52 was not even adequate as your emotions once again overcame you and you did not even realize what was being posed originally. If someone presents a different point of view and Islam is supposed to teach tolerance, why can’t you tolerate other viewpoints? The article itself presents how Saudi mutaween distort Islam and how some can never reconcile how religious principles and modern ideals of society fit together (tho not all) and how the Pakistan really only remains religious because the army is infiltrated by islamists and allows them to keep the distortions running. The article to me asks if there is any way to influence and change these distortions. And you seem to be against anyone trying to show a way that will clear all of it up - LOVE as Jesus teaches and supposed Islam accepts the teachings of Jesus….how can this make you angry?

Anyway, the answer you gave is also not adequate because you didn’t realize the obvious conclusion - that as Jesus is God He is the only being who can CONTROL His anger and responses to it or any other emotion totally. Obvious to us all you are not God as you can’t control your anger. That you don`t understand that makes me question if you have any concept of who God is – for a Muslim or a Christian. Then you say you want to write a book about it……………..my emotion on that can only be laughter!

You may write books but who reads them? And we can all agree lots of people write books on their own musings –so what? Even lots write long winded Ph.D dissertations and books from their years of study. But all this generally means is that they have studied a particular subject or concept endlessly for years. And for the most part they study so that they can prove a theory or position as they see it - but not to find the truth. Take for example Micheo Kaku – do you know who he is? Great scientist physicist who has wasted most of his years now trying to prove a different form of time exists than what God created (wormholes and the like). Time that will get mankind into a new life dimension…………………what he forgets is man will never be able to figure out or control time or change the current realm of time completely – because GOD created and controls time, not us! A bit off the point but just to prove that here is guy that studies and writes lots of books but really has forsaken the only book that could help explain time as much as any one mind can ever understand – the Bible. God is timeless and transcends all time, man is not and can not. This is also why our finite minds can not understand fully a lot of religious concepts. Maybe if Kaku returned to reading the Bible he would understand that the only time earthly time will end and a new time dimension will take over completely is when Jesus returns to institute eternal time again for man as it has always existed as that is where God was/is, not in earthly time but omnipresent time, right?

Anyway, hopefully you will continue to study before writing that book on whatever topic because obviously what you read about religion you don’t do a thorough enough job to comprehend. What I clearly wrote about the Luke event is Jesus was not on His way to Jerusalem to set up a kingdom at that time as you still think. He was talking about the kingdom to come at the end of earthly time when He will return to reinstate eternal time again – whereby earthly time and therefore the earth and all people have to be dealt with and either destroyed because they chose evil that can not exist in His presence or taken into the eternal realm with Him. Jesus time on earth and what happened (his birth death and resurrection) was again controlled by Him because He is God. If God is all knowing and all capable as Islam claims then why wouldn’t HE want to be the one who provides the solution for our death caused by sin by dying and rising to overcome death Himself? What could be more logical? Why pray endlessly endlessly and say insha`allah endlessly? What could be a better solution to the many many problems man creates as well as being unable to live in toleration than to follow Jesus and His message of love that wil cleanse your sin forever AND brings lasting peace? Last from me on this if you want to continue to rant or “challenge” go right ahead. I can only hope it has enlightened some as the article suggested was possible.

Baptism of Jesus Christ Mr. Gill – respectfully I must cite that both the “scholars” you refer to in the article for explanation of Christianity and baptism are thought by the majority of practicing Christians to be heretics and atheists who are doing much to try and destroy the body of Christ. Therefore you can not possibly understand the concept of Christian baptism as outlined by them – so hopefully I will be able to clarify.

First, I might also clarify that technically baptism is not 100% necessary to accept Christ and “become” Christian. However, the majority of people do take on baptism.
2nd Catholics have a whole different concept of baptism (as the removal of sins and impartation of some special grace received only at that time and no time after) than non-Catholics [who see this as a statement claiming Jesus as their Savior and Lord and thereafter able to apply “grace” to their lives to follow Jesus’ commands through many situations (that non-believers obviously would not receive) - and this should lead to living a holier life and therefore sinning less and less]). It is one of the main splitting points.

Yes, as you state Jesus followed the Jewish tradition for baptism. But there were many meanings to being baptized at that time beyond ceremonial cleansing. One not only was baptized after circumcision but there were also like John many teachers and people were also baptized by a particular teacher/rabbi as a sign they agreed to follow his teachings.

The divine element in Jewish baptism is it is a sign you choose to follow God’s commands. One can not do this and not want to live a holy life, so there is no way that any Jewish baptism was purely secular. The Biblical story clearly presents that Jesus baptism was a sign God used to show people that Jesus was God and sent as the one people should listen to and follow. John told the crowd his message of baptism of repentance was not appropriate for Jesus but they now should follow Jesus because He had come with the greatest message and to baptize people into new life.

Karen Armstrong may think that hearing the voice of God was a regular thing but if she had read the Bible she would clearly see that in fact, in the OT God spoke directly to only few people and mainly prophets and whenever the majority of crowds of people did “see” or “hear” God it was thru thunder or an angel, and they were all awestruck and somewhat terrified because they could not stand in God’s holy presence. God had not talked to His people for hundreds of years (gap in time God sent messages/spoke thru OT prophets and the NT prophets) so a crowd in the NT hearing from God directly was surely a BIG BIG thing and big sign to people about who Jesus is – the Son of God! told directly to them by God – ok, most people didn’t listen or understand back then anymore than they do now, so why lots don’t believe this now is no mystery.

One statement you made is also totally false – any person entering into Christianity undergoes baptism – male or female. Why? Because each person must claim Jesus as Savior and Lord and no one else can do this for you. Your father may “vouche” for you here on earth, but to get into heaven God sees and judges YOUR heart and actions – He created each person with heart mind and soul and no one else has same heart mind and soul so it is you that must convince Him of your sincerity of belief.

Karen Armstrong is also wrong in stating the disciples did not realize Jesus’ divinity while he walked on earth. At the resurrection event of Lazarus Martha proclaimed “I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God who has come into the world.” Notice she was not one of the “12” yet as a follower she knew. Also when Jesus directly asked the 12 “who do you say that I am?” Peter replied “you are the Christ, the Son of the living God!” People who followed him knew Jesus was God from before the foundation of earth and man’s concept of time. Ok, do or can any of us with finite human mind EVER fully understand who Jesus is? Who God is (the triune nature)? Do we always believe or follow 100%? The Bible clearly says we will all only know fully only when “perfection” returns - Jesus is perfection. And when He returns at the end of time He will reveal the truth to all, believers and non-believers will see Him. The Bible also says many that have said “Lord Lord” (were baptized) never really believed or followed Him but thought they could just get baptized and get into heaven that way. This will be the most traumatic moment Jesus when sees each person face to face and reads their true heart mind and soul. And many who were baptized will realize they never fooled Him by some water act so they will not enter eternal life of happiness but be forever banished from His presence - along with many many others who clearly chose to follow other “gods” but not Jesus.

Last I also respectfully suggest that rather than this or any other socalled ``scholarly`` commentaries on God`s word you spend time reading the Bible more intensly and praying for understanding, as I do.

Waiting for Enlightenment Masadi #46 – Someone writes an illogical statement and you expect us to sit by and not say something when we can clarify what peace and love truly are? Do you agree with the statement that Isam was created to bring peace thru war? Are you saying that you as a Muslim do not revere the teachings of Jesus as Mohammed taught?

Even if you do study them, unfortunately you do not understand Jesus’ teachings because the Luke passage did not refer to money or killing people at that time but to the end times. The passage truly refers to those who did not use the spiritual gifts given to them by God and did not realize the reason they were given gifts was not to horde them (keep them to themselves) but to use them to help build the kingdom (of love) on earth – this included hording money or anything else.

Muslims do believe that God has attribute of anger, right? So it is not illogical to then believe that Jesus, Himself true God, could and would become angry when people refused to accept His statement? So this would only further prove that Jesus is God because altho He made this statement, He NEVER acted on it and killed anyone. It proves He could control His anger and knew when to act and not act unlike common man. Unlike even prophet Mohammed who when he felt threatened or could not agree with neighbors either killed them himself, had someone else kill them or started a war, Jesus never killed anyone. So that Jesus would state in anger and truthfully that one day (the end of world) anyone who does not accept Him as God, Lord and Savior and use their spiritual or wealth gifts to build the kingdom of God’s love on earth WILL be brought before Him and killed is not illogical or wrong.

Islam believes that Jesus will come back with a SWORD to lead a war so that people will know to live by the rules of Islam – if you don’t follow the rules you are dead. Christianity presents that Jesus will return with a sword to destroy all evil on the earth and set believers free. Because evil can not exist in God’s holy presence when He reigns on earth is why Jesus returns to destroy evil so His people can be FREE to love God and each other – there are many ways to love and serve God because God has made us all different – the only rule that will exist then is love.

I don’t think there are many who would argue that one day God will judge all people and either condemn each person eternally or receive paradise life eternally. To a Christian eternal life is based on belief in Jesus as God and Savior – to both Christian and Muslim amount of reward in heaven is based upon how they lived (used their gifts) on earth. Jesus statement in Luke also confirms that He is God because God is the only one able to give and take life, right? So Jesus was teaching people this – come to Me and have life or don’t come and I will surely one day take away your life at the end because I am God and able to do that.

Mohammed did not accept the former teachings of many prophets, much less the teachings of Jesus Christ. Mohammed changed many of the former teachings because he realized if he did not refute them he would have to give up his powerplays and become a nobody again. Exactly as Jesus said in Luke 19 is what Mohammed did – he chose money and power over the true spiritual kingdom – even worse, he set up a religion to use as a means to justify his actions. So your quote only proves Jesus words WERE true at that time and will come true for Mohammed and everyone else at the end times when Jesus returns to destroy those evil ones who never choose Him as king. The only Bible quotes you note also confirm what Jesus said in this Luke statement - that Jesus fulfilled all the laws and clarified the greatest law is love - heaven and earth will end and Jesus will make it happen - the greatest command again is love and it can not be relaxed or taken over by hatred, killing, war and rape - can only pray this is logical enough for you.

Waiting for Enlightenment Islam was created to spread peace on this earth and wipe the infidels of the face of earth??
Everyone says Islam is a logical religion - but how do these two (peace and war) ever logically work together???? You can`t ``peacefully`` live with someone after wiping them out - or have them think you are peaceful after you maim and torture them or rape female slaves - do all this until they ``believe``? that is cohersion, not true conversion. Peace and war are exact opposites and accomplish exact opposites - love brings peace and happy coexistence, war brings hate and dysfunctional societies.

The ONLY logical religious statement ever made was made by Jesus:
The greatest command is to love God with your whole heart body mind and soul; the next is love (all) others as you love yourself. And also love your enemies (infidels) - even if they persecute you. Why love? because God has loved you unconditionally so you do to example Gods love to the world. This is to the world the greatest example but a very illogical religious statement.

How do you deal with this knowing Mohammed who first claimed he was following all the earlier commands God gave prophets and God does not change would later change these commands and words so that love is no longer the highest example of God, but torture, killing and rape is?

Selling Spirituality I hope all can agree that altho rare, everynow and then a 100% for real spiritual guru/giant comes along - so when they do, let`s try to learn and improve ourselves from one like this!

Mother Teresa -- Spiritual Genius
When we speak of a person who is deeply spiritual -- a person whose consciousness reaches past the boundaries of ordinary life -- in short, when we speak of a spiritual genius -- what do we really mean by that?

To explore this question, I will be looking here at Gonxhe Agnes Bojaxhiu, much better known as Mother Teresa, whose work with the poor in Calcutta made her a world-renowned icon of charity and pastoral love.

Mother Teresa has been celebrated and elevated to a status beyond that of flesh and blood human beings. This reverence was profound during her lifetime, especially after she was awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace. This veneration has become more complete since her death, with the proposal for canonization as a saint by the Catholic Church, although she has been known as a saint throughout the world for many years.

A childhood friend of the future Mother Teresa recalls her saying in 1928, ``I have decided to dedicate myself completely to God and to devote my life to going on missions and to serving souls.`` She was 18 years old. Soon thereafter, she joined the Irish Catholic order of nuns that operated missions in India. After spending some time in Ireland, she was sent to Calcutta, where she taught in a Catholic high school and later became the principal of the school. She also mastered several of the indigenous languages of India. In 1930, her order gave her the name Teresa, after St. Teresa of Avila, a Spanish saint of the 16th century.

In 1946, she contracted tuberculosis. While traveling on a train to a hospital for treatment, she received what she described as a ``call within a call.`` From then on, she decided to devote herself to the poorest of the poor, leaving the high school and working in the slums of Calcutta. Within a few years, she had founded her own order, the Missionaries of Charity, whose work she described as providing ``free service to the poor and the unwanted, regardless of caste, creed, nationality or race.`` In 1979, she received the Nobel Peace Prize, ``for work undertaken in the struggle to overcome poverty and distress, which also constitute a threat to peace.`` Upon being told of the honor, she replied, ``I am unworthy.``

At the time of her death, polls showed that Mother Teresa was the most respected woman in the world. Her name was and is synonymous with selfless dedication in the service of humanity. Mother Teresa was not only a spiritual genius, she was a spiritual giant. While it may seem difficult to see yourself in those terms, there is a lot to be learned from her -- a lot that can be applied in your own life, starting now.

Selling Spirituality #1echoboom - did you forget the link to Naive British Converts article you refer to?
don`t forget the popular ghazal profiteers either, such as Sabree brothers! Allahoo all the way to the bank!

First, Honor Thyself Even better discussion - somehow its ok for your own to rape or sell your own for any reason....BUT American Steven Green they insist is an animal and want brought up on charges. all i read is women in Iraq saying how they are being assaulted right and left by their own who can`t agree to stop killing each other and use the war to continue their longtime fued over who followed the Prophet better....I can`t stop laughing.....where was the ummah when her honor was being assaulted? all he did was buy into the culture and follow thru on the islamic message he got that its bloody ok to take a woman`s honor away if someone insults you......he felt insulted by having to fight some war the iraqis originally wanted but now the going got tough don`t have the guts to continue fighting.....so he uses their own strategy that maybe i rape your women the war will end.....and no one understands this?

First, Honor Thyself ``Until women are free to own their bodies and until their honor is tied not to their chastity but to the strength of their character, these (dis)honor killings and other anti-female acts will not stop``.

YES YES YES! until women respect themself enough to protect all other women and force men to see us as human beings this sad tradition will not stop. women must rise up and say ENUF and keep pushing until the mindset changes - without this the male behavior will not stop. some parts of culture just have to be seen for what they are - wrong - and dealt with as such.

why is it a woman can be abused to solve in many case a dispute that doesn`t even involve her? how come it isn`t a boy child given to another guy to have fun with, but the girls sexuality and mind can be abused without anyone caring? how can anyone condone a woman being given to someone - which means he can use her as he pleases inside and outside the bed - just to settle a dispute? why is it men can`t talk these things out and come to decent reasonable solution? such as you took my goat now I give you a goat - or even two goats if you think your goat was sooo precious. why if I take your goat do you think its ok to rape my wife or have me give my daughter to one of yours? is a goat more important than the girl?

no one in this 21st century can think that this is decent, rational behavior and expect the world can deal with us rationally if this is allowed to continue. honor and purity is NOT the issue - the issue is men`s pride and LACK of honor to think their women are not full human beings

The Woman on the Tracks On this day of greatest tragedy in the Sindh can`t help reflecting on how true to life this story is. So many trying to hide the dark problems that often lead to big big disaster - such as happens daily to our women in train carriage as well as on the streets - and distractions of those in charge with what they feel is more important. Sad sad story and sad sad day. Unfortunate this scenario really does happen - that everyone seems only thinking of themself and time it would take from them if they helped or did the right thing?

Only thing I don`t believe is last paragraph - NO normal man would give up sexing his wife forever being plagued by gory thought and sight of another - man`s conscience fades too quickly and especially when urges come day in and day out.

May we each pray to be affected by the tragedy today whether it affected us directly or not. This story is clear reminder of us all that life is too short to think only of ourself.

Dear Dina - having gone thru a similar experience, altho while a bit older and not with an educated Pakistani I can sympathize with you on one level - the emotional one.

However, after coming to my senses about 1) living in a soceity which even tho western still thins that somehow a woman is not complete without a man, 2) thinking there is no difference between people`s basic upbringing and even religious beliefs and 3) last, the fact that an educated woman should be able to discern more about human character - I came to the knowledge that true differences DO exist between people of different cultures, races and religions. I am not saying wrong things exist in cultures, races or religions outside the west but truly things SAsian people are taught and how they interact is entirely different than in the West. Now having MANY desi friends they all tell me culture shock even tho they are told some to expect is overwhelming to them. As much as they try to behave and fit in western, they never truly can - because their mindset was developed with all these different ideas and therefore while they interact ``appropriately`` they are always questioning themself - and how this looks to other desis around them, what if word gets back to family and ESP if they are muslim - well, interacting is HARAM HARAM HARAM and pre-marital sex is TOTALLY forbidden.

But the BIGGEST factor I finally had to decide on hinges on what you claim - that your upbringing taught you to look beyond race and into the character and spirit and integrity of a person. Well, then my ? is - if these men come over here KNOWING that per their culture and religion they should not interact and it will NEVER be tolerated and actually is considered a SIN - how can they ever then justify looking at a white woman, much less asking her out and continuing it long-term including sex they know they could never get away with back home?? This to me says TONS about the integrity, spirit and DEEN (character) - were they ever taught to have any of these - to me it seemed everything was always for appearances and if no one finds out then their character hasn`t been affected.

The other factor that concerns me is that you state you were raised Christian but somehow in the ``character`` traits your parents (and church) taught they obviously never taught the Christian concept of purity/virginity AND the bigger comand given by God in the Bible (both OT & NT) which states Christians are ONLY to marry another Christian - which would also mean DATE only Christians. Yes, muslim MEN can marry ``people of the book`` - but Christians do not follow Islam/the Quran - we follow the Lord/Holy Bible. So I am amazed that your experience did not lead you to realize this and that if you had followed thru with this relationship the biggest problem is you would have had to deny Jesus Christ and therefore jeopardize your eternal salvation. Perhaps you did not want to include this fact in your bioarticle but there is no way I would ever post an article or speak to any audience about my relationship and not include this important fact! That truly it was God who saved me from that relationship by opening my eyes to some of the stuff this guy said occassionally which made me start to search the web and study more about Pakistan and Islam....and realize just how different we were and that compromise and happiness was NOT gonna be possible.

When you investigate you find that muslimahs (their women) may NOT marry outside the religion - so this gives further cause to ? the reasoning for why muslim men are coming to America and persue white Christian women. After I found this out I asked and yes, my guy TOLD me they are taught to persue us to win us and future children for Islam..and that the Quran (God`s word to muslims) tells muslims they can and should lie to expand Islam!! Once again, that was God using him to reveal to me that his character from the start was NEVER pure...but moreso that it was a religion that formed this mindset - so even if it did have some good qualities Islam was surely not what I wanted any future children to learn indepth - because it taught them how to lie, which to a Christian is a sin - small, white or deliberate lying is a sin! In Islam lying is only a sin if it hurts a muslim or Islam - go figure.

Further, a simple review of some websites clearly shows Christians are living and treated in Pakistan as subservient and so you have to realize that there is no way anyone is gonna turn this around just because they ``fall in love``. Christians are DHIMMIS, 2nd class citizens in Islam with NO rights in a muslim majority. So as all americans are considered christians to muslims acceptance by his family will never be possible. Yes, we Chrsitians hear over and over forgive, for ``the heart of man is sinfully wicked`` - and the way Christians in Pakistan are being treated is wicked and sinful - but muslims do not believe this. And you think their mindset is gonna be changed just by flying a few hours to get here or living here a few years after being raised like that?

Ultimately the choice comes down to can you really live and have your most INDEPTH intimate relationship with someone who was not raised with the same values - cultural or religious? raised so different than we (Christians) here in America are?

Thankfully you found out it is not possible - I can only hope more ``white women`` will read this - or be able to find others with similar experience - before they make the same mistake. Although I wish no one ill will and yes, as a Christian do LOVE my enemies and reach out and accept anyone from any country or religion (without trying to evangelize). But I also found out the hard way that ``tolerance`` does NOT work both ways and love does not conquer the muslim/desi mindset!