See RSS, Think Al Queda! dost-mittar, here`s a question for you, pmishra and your ilk. Why is it that in the midst of numerous grossly racist posts by so many other people, in the midst of violence, hatred and discrimination directed at Dalits at all social levels, in the midst of the *approval* of racist hatred by many posters of this forum, your accusations of ``hatred`` are ALWAYS directed at the people who protest racism and casteism?? You`re like the folks who ignored the entire racist south to single out Dr. King for the accusation of hate. I never saw of pmishra you getting this vehement for any of the Dalit-hating posts. Something`s wrong with your mindset.

The mindset is what I want to see changed. You change pathologies by exposing their pathological nature. What is it that makes you unable to open your mouth against racism/casteism but only against those who protest it? What is it that makes you unable to tolerate a Dalit taking the intellectual lead in anything? Why always the need to falsify history, take the credit away from Dalits, be intellectually overbearing? You say you want to fight casteism? I`ll take you at your word, and show you what`s casteist about your attitude, pmishra`s attitude. Dalit gave very interesting and relevant information - he always does. Information about the many levels of prejudice Dalits face - from the physically violent to the psychologically violent. This is meant to show you aspects of caste-Hindu behaviour that are pathological, aspects of our society that are pathological, aspects of this ``Hindu-pride`` movement you all subscribe to that are pathological. It is easier to change once you see the pathological pattern clearly.

Instead of listening to this, taking note of it, asking why these pathologies exist in your minds and at all levels of socety the first thing all of you do is say ``Tut tut Dalit, let ME tell you what the problem REALLY is, you are Hateful, you are Stupid, you are Wrong, you are Illiterate, Uneducated etc etc, you Really Don`t Know Anything, let US define this problem``. So - you know better than Dalits who face this nonsense personally, better than Dalit activists, Dalit intellectuals, you know better than all these people how the problem should be framed and solved. That`s intellectual bullying at its worst! It shows a rankly un-egalitarian attitude - the utter inability to treat people as equals, to listen to people as equals, to even allow people to define the discrimination THEY, not you, face. Don`t you realize how deadly and loaded caste-Hindu intellectual bullying is? Don`t you know its sordid history?

Dalit will have to speak for himself, but MY aim is to point out your pathological behaviour, which sanctions and creates approval for the cruder physical terror Dalits face, which drastically affects their quality of life. Look at the crudity of the ``debate`` on reservations. Ever sat in a classroom and had a vicious and hostile teacher demean your contributions and intellect at every turn? Imagine this exclusion from learning perpetrated on generations and generations of people, BY generations and generations of people and think of how greedy and unfair the caste-Hindu hatred of reservations is. As if there was ever equality of opportunity for ``merit`` to be an issue at all!! Can you really speak of ``merit`` when even caste-Hindu retards get major preferential treatment over Dalit intellectuals? One set of people has to face racist slurs and hatred every single day, while the worst stupidities of the other set are overlooked. Merit indeed!! Doesn`t it bother you that some people think that thousands of years of reservations for caste-Hindus is OK, but 50 years of reservations for dalits is already ``too much``?

Look at the racist, hostile, anti-reservations rants here. If your conscience has no problem with the prevalence of such sentiments, then you are mentally ill! You and pmishra DON`T want to change anything or demolish casteism, you just want to acquire a ``liberal`` tag for yourselves, India and Hinduism, and you want to acquire it for cheap!!

People who DO have a conscience genuinely want to demolish casteism and stigmatize casteism so people will be as ashamed of it as they would be of pedophilia. Such people will not cheaply award the ``liberal`` tag to anyone, particularly not people who are mulishly resistant to having their own racism pointed out, and who prefer to grandstand and lecture the victims of racism instead.

See RSS, Think Al Queda! Arjun_m, I`m not the poster named ``Dalit``, so please don`t include me in your revenge fantasies.

Pmishra, I`m sure you took a long time to write your inane post. Unfortunately, O Turbaned Head Clerk, its all a rehash of what Dr. Ambedkar and others said and set in motion ages ago... Building schools doesn`t erase the casteist, racist, overbearing mindset of people like you... Racism and Casteism require a different set of parameters to analyse and tackle, but nice job plagiarising and compiling.....

See RSS, Think Al Queda! Pmisra, of course, you believe you`ve said the most intelligent thing on this forum so far. You remind me of lonely men on elevators who smile proudly after they fart.

>>>Nakli Dalit
Oh really? Did a divine being whisper this knowledge in your ear? I guess they`re giving ISI agents the Collected Works of Dr. Ambedkar to read, eh?? And how do we know YOU`RE not a German neo-Nazi trolling this site? Nakli Indian, that`s what YOU are... One of those megalomaniac Brahmin NRIs who want to keep their fascist grip over the Indian scene, even when they`re citizens of some other country...

>>>>>>is a well known demagogue and hate monger; using hateful and ultimately racist language he wants to provoke people.

Yeah riiiiiight - and you`re not racist at all to pounce on the only Dalit perspective and scream ``fake!``... I guess ``real`` dalits for you, would not, as you angrily say ``use long words``...maybe ``real dalits``, the kind you approve of, and award the supreme gift of recognition to, wear tattered clothes and sweep houses, being careful not to use long words and anger Pandoo Mishra.....

>>>The real question is education and self-improvement.

Of course, only P(andoo) Mishra has the right to tell us, in his own words, what the REAL issue is... Need a clerk Sahib? Need verygood precis writer Sahib? Pandoo Mishra at your disposal Sahib, fullsummingup done in 3 languages.... Dr. Ambedkar is wrong, Dalit is wrong, P Mishra`s plagiarised inanities are RIGHT.

>>>How can we make pie larger for EVERYBODY?

*SOB* How indeed? First, call all Dalits and BCs who protest racism, (especially while using long words) ``fake``, and of course, racist. Just as the KKK called Dr. Martin Luther King a racist, pmishra`s followers must call anti-racists, racists. PMishra`s methods of course include a Hindu form of ``dawa``, which Dalit has rather humorously rejected in the past, which must explain PMishra`s ire.

>>>>But these bevakoofs dont care.

Sniff, truly! Only Pmishra cares. Dalits just care about oppressing themselves, while using long words. How to make pie larger for EVERYBODY?? (while keeping the proportion of division the same??) Pmishra to the rescue Sahib!

See RSS, Think Al Queda! >>>most of them are racists and shtups of the first order

True dat! They are known worldwide for this. The reason Indians are detested all over Africa, in Fiji, Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica is that other ethnic groups are very familiar with their racism... I`ve had Africans from the Caribbean tell me that among Indians, the Hindus are always the worst racists, much worse than whites. Muslims and Christians are not so bad. I`ve been on African-American forums and Indians are always the worst racists with the most foul mouths. Even the rednecks don`t descend to the same crude levels.... So other folks also know all about caste-Hindu pathologies...

Durban was good, highlighted Indian apartheid - slow, sure steps - steady documentation of abuses and racism is needed... The violence Muslims faced at VHP hands is what Dalits have been facing at caste-Hindu hands for centuries.

Caste Hindus are very good fascist material, excellent ethnic cleansers. They have centuries of practice at dehumanizing people, terrorising people, using techniques of shunning, exclusion, carefully calibrated hate...

It is, as Dalit said, almost genetic...

See RSS, Think Al Queda! I must admit to baiting Sanghis into airing their fantasies of murder on forums in the past. I put them all into my reports - all the activists who worked on the Modi visa denial found Sanghi rantings online so useful. We couldn`t believe these sorry retards would be so open about their hate! Heheheee - look where it got them...

The casteist rantings will have a similar fate :) :)...

See RSS, Think Al Queda! Dalit, post #44, excellent profile of proto-fascist traits... Early RSS ideologues met Mussolini, admired the black shirts - Maria Casolari has done great research on this. The RSS is called fascist so often because they openly admired the fascist model and sought to emulate it. Fascist organizations are obviously going to be highly authoritarian - casteism would be a virtue... If the RSS attracts dalits, its only by holding out promises they cannot fulfill. Dalits who ever supported them should have realized that post-Godhra when all the media seemed to be interested in were the 10% Dalit faces in the mob...Even in ordinary interactions, ashamed caste-Hindus like to blame everything on dalits - you`ll often see them do that with every riot - should be enough of a warning to dalits never to support them...Its a different story that in Gujarat, the VHP terrorised dalits as well and left them few options.

I`m thrilled that Ranger and others are openly airing their hatred and racism on this site....Just as the rantings of Sanghis served very well to indict their sorry fascist arses, the rantings of casteists will also be very useful documentation... Great goldmine for anthropologists examining caste-Hindu pathologies :) :). Anthropologists and human rights organizations need all the material they can get, and racist Hindus are VERY forthcoming. PhD students could (and do!) take great notes here, let these loving interactions go into books, let them go down in history.

Please don`t hold back - we need every single bit of documentation and demonstration for the continuing fact of racism. Thanks! Continue!

See RSS, Think Al Queda! I like the way ``liberal`` Hindus deflect the casteism accusations WHILE STILL BEING CASTEIST. Of course they are ALL against casteism (snicker snicker), BUT

1. Every post comments on the intellectual inferiority of Dalits and BCs. Imagine saying the same thing about African Americans in the US. You`d immediately be identified as far-right KKK, a RACIST. But Indians routinely say such things about and TO Dalits and BCs - not just on forums but teachers say it to students in classrooms, including in the IITs. That`s right - it is still OK AND ACCEPTABLE to harrass and demean people like this among Indians. The average caste-Hindu is MORE RACIST than the average American redneck, who would at least think 5 times before saying these things to others. This racism IS NOT ACCEPTABLE in the US, but it IS acceptable among the most ``educated`` caste Hindus. India is an apartheid state and this is approved of by the average caste Hindu.

2. Every post contains dehumanizing and racist caste slurs about excrement, the occupations RACIST CASTE HINDUS FORCED DALITS INTO. Yes, that`s how much hatred caste Hindus carry in their hearts - a hatred that makes them want to torture people with excrement. That`s the contents of the caste Hindu head - FANTASIES OF TORTURE. This is what their religion teaches them. Hatred. Deal with anger by torturing people in the most medieval and hateful ways - excrement, rape, violence. This is how much rage and hatred these racist sickos carry. AND IN THE NEXT SENTENCE THEY CLAIM TO BE AGAINST CASTEISM!!! That`s the ``liberal`` caste Hindu. I`m liberal, and against caste, but I will hurl threats of torture and racist caste-slurs at any Dalit or BC who disagrees with me.

This is how racist caste Hindus have maintained an apartheid state for centuries. By dehumanizing and terrorising people at every turn, reducing them to chattel, treating them like animals. The racist caste-slurs are not ``just words`` mind you. They are a tool of hatred and control. Imagine a Dalit child going to a school and being threatened with such hateful language, such threats, such slurs JUST FOR ASSERTING HERSELF AND SPEAKING HER MIND.

This is how these caste-Hindu sickos maintain their bloodstained, gory privileges. They are daily terrorists.

3. The repeated LIE that ``only uneducated people`` and ``villagers`` and ``BCs`` oppress Dalits. LIES. Look at the behaviour of educated people on this forum - hell ANY forum. The most ``liberal`` caste Hindu will turn into an abusive racist goon with a filthy mouth the minute a Dalit speaks her/his mind. Dalit only has to mention the racism routinely faced by Dalits at all levels of society, its sanction in the shastras, the daily experience and practice of racist hatred in Indian society. That`s ALL it takes for caste-Hindus to turn into raving, violent, hateful, foul-mouthed, enraged bullies.

First they will take away your voice by calling it FAKE. Isn`t that the classic abuser`s ploy? You keep hitting someone and when they cry out in pain, you accuse them of pretending. Yup, that`s a sure sign of a SADIST mindset and SADISM is only ONE among the many caste-Hindu pathologies. Caste-Hindus are mentally diseased people because of the horrific oppression and hatred that their egos are sustained by. So - first thing they will do is say `YOU ARE NOT A DALIT`. At the same time using racist caste slurs!! But that`s exactly how Dalits are oppressed! Racist caste Hindus may even call you a ``MULLAH``. Yup, you could be a Buddhist, or a Christian, or an atheist, but caste-Hindus will call you a MUSLIM, because to their teeny-weeny racist minds, that is a way of dehumanizing you and rendering your VOICE invalid.

This is how the sadistic caste-Hindu mind functions to bully Dalits who speak their mind.

4. The other thing they do is BASH AND DERIDE EVERY DALIT INTELLECTUAL EVER. This is another racist and hateful caste-Hindu ploy. A way of dehumanizing and belittling people. This is the same hatred that denied Dalits the RIGHT TO READ AND LEARN for centuries. Now it resurfaces by calling people `ILLITERATE`` AND ``WRONG``, dismissing their knowledge and education.

5. Racist caste-Hindus cannot stand Dalit autonomy on matters of religion and knowledge. It strikes at the heart of their deep-rooted racist hatred. Watch how they howl with rage when a Dalit discusses religious scriptures. Watch how they howl with rage when a Dalit CONVERTS. Watch how the most ``liberal`` and ``enlightened`` caste-Hindu will be enraged and shaken by an educated dalit who DISAGREES or CONTRADICTS him. At these points you get to see the full range of caste-Hindu pathologies at work.

THE IDEA THAT ``LIBERAL`` AND ``EDUCATED`` CASTE-HINDUS ARE NOT RACIST HAS TO BE EXPOSED. They sustain racism and casteism intellectually, behaviourally, attitudinally.

Ayodhya: The Aftermath of the Terrorist Attack Masanumuthu, I wish what you said was true. But its not. The people who say racust things on this forum and others are not ``old``. In fact ``old`` people would be less likely to use foul and abusive language on a forum.

Kaalchakra, I pointed to some samples of racist and sadistic interactions on this forum. Rather than acting like a good human being and condemning the CLEARLY racist posts and people, you turn around and try to lecture ME!! That`s what I mean! There have been so many racist posts and attitudes displayed on this forum, but YOUR concern is NOT to raise your voice against them and say that`s WRONG, but to LECTURE DALITS!! You`re part of the problem, not the solution!! You`re the one generalising! I only spoke about the attitudes of RACIST caste-Hindus, not about the attitudes of the NOn-racist. It is also racist to excuse and minimise the hateful behaviour of racists and lecture their victims instead!!

Jang, Ambedkarites know quite well that the Indian intellgensia excludes Dalits as equals. As for whether they are ``pissed`` about this - they recognize the racism inherent in the exclusion. Any good human being should recognize that. Dr. Ambedkar was the only sane voice around in a world full of communal Savarkars and Jinnahs and passive-aggressive casteists like Gandhi. He was excluded then. He is excluded now. That`s racism in action.

As for your comments on what ``pisses off hard-core neo-Buddhists`` - only what should ``piss off`` anybody with a conscience - racism. I`m talking about the jealous hijacking of Buddhism by caste-Hindus - who always shout and scream that Ambedkar`s Buddhism is ``wrong`` and that Buddhism is ``derived`` from Hinduism. THAT`S what I was talking about. I`m not talking about the fate of the movement or anything like that - if anything, with the worldwide trend among the educated towards Buddhism, it will be quite safe as long as education of Dalits is safe. Dr. Ambedkar`s book is there for all Dalits who want to read it. I understand that Buddhism is very infuriating to folks whose identities rest of some cosy chat someone had with ``God`` once, but sorry - Buddhism`s reputation is well-established, doing quite well.

Ayodhya: The Aftermath of the Terrorist Attack I like the way ``liberal`` Hindus deflect the casteism accusations WHILE STILL BEING CASTEIST. Of course they are ALL against casteism (snicker snicker), BUT

1. Every post comments on the intellectual inferiority of Dalits and BCs. Imagine saying the same thing about African Americans in the US. You`d immediately be identified as far-right KKK, a RACIST. But Indians routinely say such things about and TO Dalits and BCs - not just on forums but teachers say it to students in classrooms, including in the IITs. That`s right - it is still OK AND ACCEPTABLE to harrass and demean people like this among Indians. The average caste-Hindu is MORE RACIST than the average American redneck, who would at least think 5 times before saying these things to others. This racism IS NOT ACCEPTABLE in the US, but it IS acceptable among the most ``educated`` caste Hindus. India is an apartheid state and this is approved of by the average caste Hindu.

2. Every post contains dehumanizing and racist caste slurs about excrement, the occupations RACIST CASTE HINDUS FORCED DALITS INTO. Yes, that`s how much hatred caste Hindus carry in their hearts - a hatred that makes them want to torture people with excrement. That`s the contents of the caste Hindu head - FANTASIES OF TORTURE. This is what their religion teaches them. Hatred. Deal with anger by torturing people in the most medieval and hateful ways - excrement, rape, violence. This is how much rage and hatred these racist sickos carry. AND IN THE NEXT SENTENCE THEY CLAIM TO BE AGAINST CASTEISM!!! That`s the ``liberal`` caste Hindu. I`m liberal, and against caste, but I will hurl threats of torture and racist caste-slurs at any Dalit or BC who disagrees with me.

This is how racist caste Hindus have maintained an apartheid state for centuries. By dehumanizing and terrorising people at every turn, reducing them to chattel, treating them like animals. The racist caste-slurs are not ``just words`` mind you. They are a tool of hatred and control. Imagine a Dalit child going to a school and being threatened with such hateful language, such threats, such slurs JUST FOR ASSERTING HERSELF AND SPEAKING HER MIND.

This is how these caste-Hindu sickos maintain their bloodstained, gory privileges. They are daily terrorists.

3. The repeated LIE that ``only uneducated people`` and ``villagers`` and ``BCs`` oppress Dalits. LIES. Look at the behaviour of educated people on this forum - hell ANY forum. The most ``liberal`` caste Hindu will turn into an abusive racist goon with a filthy mouth the minute a Dalit speaks her/his mind. Dalit only has to mention the racism routinely faced by Dalits at all levels of society, its sanction in the shastras, the daily experience and practice of racist hatred in Indian society. That`s ALL it takes for caste-Hindus to turn into raving, violent, hateful, foul-mouthed, enraged bullies.

First they will take away your voice by calling it FAKE. Isn`t that the classic abuser`s ploy? You keep hitting someone and when they cry out in pain, you accuse them of pretending. Yup, that`s a sure sign of a SADIST mindset and SADISM is only ONE among the many caste-Hindu pathologies. Caste-Hindus are mentally diseased people because of the horrific oppression and hatred that their egoes are sustained by. So - first thing they will do is say `YOU ARE NOT A DALIT`. At the same time using racist caste slurs!! But that`s exactly how Dalits are oppressed! Racist caste Hindus may even call you a ``MULLAH``. Yup, you could be a Buddhist, or a Christian, or an atheist, but caste-Hindus will call you a MUSLIM, because to their teeny-weeny racist minds, that is a way ofdehumanizing you and rendering your VOICE invalid.

Its a way of taking away a person`s voice - invalidating the person. This is how the sadistic caste-Hindu mind functions to bully Dalits who speak their mind.

4. The other thing they do is BASH AND DERIDE EVERY DALIT INTELLECTUAL EVER. This is another racist and hateful caste-Hindu ploy. A way of dehumanizing and belittling people. This is the same hatred that denied Dalits the RIGHT TO READ AND LEARN for centuries. Now it resurfaces by calling people `ILLITERATE`` AND ``WRONG``, dismissing their knowledge and education.

You`ll see it when racist caste-Hindus try to tell Ambedkarite Buddhists ``YOU DON`T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BUDDHISM``. Riiiiight - racist caste-Hindus, who themselves know so little about Buddhism that they think it is the same thing as Hinduism, DELIGHT in assuming the priestly function and telling Ambedkarite Buddhists ``YOUR BUDDHISM IS WRONG. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT BUDDHISM``. They can`t STAND the fact that Dr. Ambedkar was as phenomenally erudite as he was, that he rejected Hinduism after familiarising himself with all its apologists ever, and adopted Buddhism. They have to diminish that, sneer at it, deride it - RACISM IN ACTION. Not even Dr. Ambedkar is spared!! dalits must defer to racist caste-Hindus even on Buddhism!!

Racist caste-Hindus cannot stand Dalit autonomy on matters of religion and knowledge. It strikes at the heart of their deep-rooted racist hatred.

THE IDEA THAT ``LIBERAL`` AND ``EDUCATED`` CASTE-HINDUS ARE NOT RACIST HAS TO BE EXPOSED. They sustain racism and casteism intellectually, behaviourally, attitudinally.

Will Kashmiri Pandits Ever Return to their Abode…? Dalit, everything you have said on this post is TRUE. People are getting angry and shouting BECAUSE IT IS ALL TRUE. We grew up thinking we have a ``great civilization`` and a ``tolerant`` culture - all LIES we were taught...Someone should write a ``lies my teacher told me`` book about India... During the Independence struggle, caste-Hindus spun many lies for the Indian middle-class, which they still believe, even if they (we) think we are very liberal. One of the horrible stories spun was this ``Hinduism is tolerant`` thing - nothing could be more of a lie...How brutally Buddhists and jains were treated in the past when they threatened caste-Hindu dominance. How brutally Muslims and Christians are treated because they, being world religions headquartered where there are no caste-Hindus, threaten caste-Hindu dominance also... Many caste-Hindus have good hearts (to the extent they can) but they grew up thinking Gandhi was a great man and a ``good`` Hindu as opposed to a ``bad`` and casteist Hindu. Gandhi made it so that in return for living peacefully in India, Muslims/Christians and Dalits would be pitted against each other. Upper-caste Muslims and upper-caste Hindus collaborated to keep the masses under their control.....

Gandhi had a cannibalistic attitude towards Dalits - he wanted to swallow them as Hindus who would always be slaves... He hated conversion, went overboard with the ``God`` thing to make sure that all god-centered religions remained within the ugly grasp of caste-Hindus through this ``advaita`` and ``bhakti`` thing.....Horrible devices created to trap people into thinking they are ``good`` and ``tolerant`` when they are being INTOLERANT of other religions, of the right of other religions to BE WHAT THEY ARE, rather than being a branch of Hinduism... The sickos even try to say Buddhism is Hinduism when there is NO GOD in Buddhism - Buddhism threatenes these people so much because its hard to swallow that and say ``its ours``.....

Why is the monthly death toll among dalits unreported EN-MASSE by the media, as ONE figure that shows the deadly, genocidal apartheid Dalits face??? No - the Pandits are the only thing in people`s eyes always - WHY DOES THE SO-CALLED LIBERAL MEDIA COLLUDE IN THIS??

Dalit is the ONLY person on here I see talking any sense, giving any fresh information....

Everyone else just rants and gives lectures, ignoring the stench emanating from their own casteist mouths...

If you are a caste-Hindu and consider yourself a good human being - ABANDON YOUR HINDU IDENTITY. Become a Buddhist, develop a sense of ethics and compassion, most importantly, develop some clarity in your head about what is important in life, in society.....Caste-Hindus who rant at Dalits and lecture them about ``peace`` and ``love`` ARE HYPOCRITES. they have blinded themselves to human suffering - they don`t respond to it any more because they ONLY see their ``own`` people as humans - they have DEHUMANIZED Dalits and are now doing the same to Muslims....

Ayodhya: The Aftermath of the Terrorist Attack Dalit is very correct about caste Hindus and caste Hinduism. I would note however that in recent years the ``4th caste`` ie. ``shudras`` have become ultra-Hindu. Read Chandra Bhan Prasad. He says progressive Brahmins and Dalits need to unite because ``everyone else`` hates them both for different reasons. Masanumuthu has a point!

As for tvarad`s comment that ``India is now under the governance of Dalits`` - is he mad?? His whole post is a fine example of how RACIST caste Hindus really are. Replace ``Dalits`` with ``African Americans`` and see how that sounds. Imagine saying this in a mixed-race American setting on the East Coast.

He even chooses to rant on about reservations. The irony of how badly argued his post is, is lost on the general casteist junta. he`s ranting against Dalits, Dr. Ambedkar and reservations, so he must be making sense!! Truly, caste-Hindus excel at eating cowdung and calling it nectar. These castesit, anti-reservation rants never make any sense and are never supported by anything like scientific data. Pure emotion and hatred sustain them.

And people point a finger at dalit, because he says things that make them VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AS THE TRUTH ALWAYS DOES......

How green is their valley? >>>Hope you`re a legitimate poster, talk to a few ``Dalits`` and get the ``real`` info. other than relying on a few ``websites`` with a nefarious agenda.

I am a legitimate poster and I have been engaged in conversations with Dalits (at least I think they are) on other websites. In real life, I don`t live in India now and when I did, I never asked people what their caste is.

What is the ``nefarious agenda`` that you mean? I have come across some Christian fundamentalists who never tire of saying inaccurate things about any kind of philosophical thought that took birth on the Indian subcontinent or anywhere in Asia. By the way I am a practicing Buddhist now, but I used to believe in Advaita Vedanta, which I learned about from a book on it. There was nothing in that book about caste and I never learnt any Sanskrit Vedas or Upanishads - I grew up believing in monism - ie. we all have divinity and dhyana or jnana-yoga helps one realize it. Its NOT very hard to make the leap to Buddhism from this because Buddhism is also a ``dhyana`` or cognitive path that never requires blind faith or priestly interference. Only it doesn`t have ``God`` and ``Soul``(Self) and it HAS its own unique meditation technique that other Indian philosophical schools don`t have.

So I find the ``Hinduism is Brahminism`` thing exasperating because my whole family is Vedantin and they are really peaceful people who meditate a lot and don`t get angry. Just because its assumed that Brahmins wrote everything, some people superstitiously shy away from ideas that are in themselves completely inoffensive. People say Adi Sankara was influenced by Buddhism - he had to be - it was the prevailing religion of the time. Adi Sankara plagiarised ideas from Buddhism but Buddhism is the REAL THING!! Once a Buddhist you can never go back to Vedanta! So yes, I find a lot of the ``Hinduism is Brahminism`` brigade a little misguided. Its like saying ``Christianity is slavery``. I mean if you look at it, Christians have killed and enslaved more people than anyone else and can be really seriously bigoted and racist.

I notice you don`t like Islam. Ok, fine, you have the right to reject a religion. But in practice I find Muslims to be much more pleasant and calm people face to face at least than practising Christians who are often slimy. Besides in recent world history, Islam has been an underdog compared to Christianity and I am usually on the side of the underdog.

But there is another way to look at this. Official, political conversion (instead of the ``inward conversion`` I have undergone) - allows you to make people clarify their own stances on so many things. Why are people calling themselves Hindu? What are their actual beliefs? What political leverage does membership in different religious groups give you? Etc etc.

How green is their valley? >>>#206 googlymoogly

Heheheh…just made couple of mistakes….

I am sure I have. Hope you`ll point them out.


Masanumuthu said:
``FYI: There is no real opposition to Dalit / Non-dalit education.. ``

By education I mean the national myths we have grown up with. Like ``Hinduism teaches tolerance`` and ``Respect every religion``. Like the very upper-caste notions of nationalism, citizenship, ``India`s great rich heritage``, ``great Eastern wisdom`` etc that we have.

``If you take the survey of the people employed in the IT industry, you`d be pleasantly surprised to see the number of Dalits there.. ``

The Dalit websites say there is discrimination there and don`t Brahmins claim IT for themselves and dominate it? (So good at ``max``)


``The states that are leading employers of IT esp. Karnataka and TN have been reserving seats for the Dalits/lower-castes to the tune of more than 50%.. ``

Don`t they say that OBCs and MBCs take these seats away from Dalits?

``We give a rat`s a** to any talk of caste superiority/inferiority.. ``

Who`s ``we``? Maybe you don`t believe in all that. But please notice how the minute dalit starts posting people mention ``low class``, ``uneducated`` and of course the usual stuff about excrement, anal sex and sexual torture, apart from racist caste slurs.

It appears there is a mindset that still requires the silent punkahwallah to just stand in a corner while Daddy discusses politics with his friends.

How green is their valley? Ajeya, I`ve noticed every time Dalit and BC issues come up, people mention excrement, anal sex or sexual torture. Its a great eye-opener on the sickness lurking in the casteist mind. Who knows what kinds of tortures you will commit in some remote village. The abusive folks here still have a totally medieval, barbaric and feudal mindset. Get civilized folks!

I am sure it makes you very angry to have your fragile ``Hindu`` identity humilated but you shouldn`t let it addle your brains. I and Dalit are two distinct people, `k?

How green is their valley? Masanumuthu, OK, let`s have Dalit give you the details. By the way, do you mean to say you consider yourself a ``Hindu``?

How green is their valley? >>>lizard minion

Dalit, what is a lizard minion?

I agree with you about the ``no dirty linen on a Paki site`` mentality. We upper-castes have a patrirchal attitude about the ``nation``, which we think is our ``jagir`` never mind that we are only 15% and everyone else does all the real work.

Two afflictions of the non-Dalit education which place non-Dalits and Dalits in tense opposition
1. Nationalist tradition of struggle against British which makes us say ``everything was rosy until the British came`` and get angry with groups for whom things only improved after British rule.
2. Gandhian pluralism which makes us say ``please respect all religions and Hinduism along with it``.

I think the ``please respect all religions`` stuff that we are so proud of is our centuries long religious FEAR. We Hindus live in constant fear of doing something wrong religiously - touching the wrong person, circling a temple the wrong way, offending someone`s god etc.

These are the pathologies we have been left by our past.

Dear Dalit, please keep posting and throwing this prissy Indo-Pak debate off track by making caste explode into it. And feel free to insult me as well - I am sure I display some patronizing or over-confident attitudes typical of ``liberal`` upper-caste intelligensia.