Mumbai Attacks: Shocking Re: # 33

There are many different players with many different agendas in this drama. Even the Israeli security people are standing by to try to get a piece of the action.

But this attack is significant not because it was meticulously planned but because it was unlike any other terrorist attack. It was a commando style deep penetration attack against high profile foreign and Indian targets instead of the usual hit and run attack on common folk at a bazaar or other public place.

We do not yet know the motive. It sure got them (whoever they are)high international visibility but what was their messsage?

Was the targets of Americans and brits intended to hurt the Indian economy by discouraging richer foreign tourists?

Was the targetting of Israelis just the old anti jew agenda or was it targeted also at Wall Street investors??

The Capture of Christianity Re: # 165
Kalchakra. You are either dishonest, delibertely insulting or you do not read my articles carefully. May I ask what is `denegrating' about what I wrote about Shankara in my article on the persection of Buddhists and Jains (May 2008)?


Quote:
There is no evidence that Shankaracharya directed such persecution but what is likely is that grasping local rulers may have used his great name to lend legitimacy to their own destruction and looting. Many local hill rajas now invited Brahmins to their domains to get themselves elevated to the rank of Kshatriyas. And many were encouraged to attack Buddhist monasteries.

Several Nepalese accounts state that the followers of Buddha were ruthlessly persecuted, slain, exiled and forcibly converted. Though many converted rather than face death, humiliation or exile. The attackers tested their faith by making them perform ‘Hinsa’, or the sacrifice of live animals, that was abhorrent to Buddhists and Jains. Many bhikshunis, or nuns, were forcibly married and the learned Grihasthas were forced to cut off the distinguishing knot of hair on top of their heads. 84,000 Buddhist works were searched for and destroyed.

It is believed that Shankara introduced pilgrimages to these holy places in the Himalayas for the first time to prevent their relapse into Buddhist or animist ways. As sufficient local Brahmins could not be found who were willing to preach in such remote places he imported Nambudri Brahmin priests from Kerala who, to this day, officiate at Badrinath, and Kedarnath

Come on you other interactors. Is this fair???

But why are you talking about me? The article is about the facts or myths about Jesus.

And forgive my ignorance but what is Mirzaism??

The Capture of Christianity Re: # 155

I can and will go no further than the limits of my knowledge or beliefs.

I will not denigrate Muhammad, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity or any other religion or sect or their founders and cannot describe them as gobbeldygook just to please you.

It is a long exploration and I will go at my own pace. I don't mind a prod orconstructive suggestion from you or anyone else but I will neither blindly praise or condemn any of them. If this makes me a secularist so be it though I call myself a deist or a believer in a cosmic spirit not an agnostic who believes in no religion. I do not believe that death is the final full stop and that all life is a miracle that goes on and on.

The Capture of Christianity Re: # 139
AKCheema. I think this extract from my old chowk article on the hijacking of Islam (oct 2006) should answer your questions.

Most Muslims believe that the Quran is the infallible, eternal and unchangeable words of Allah but very few know how much the teachings of The Prophet had been revised over the past fourteen centuries. The Quran only began to be compiled fourteen years after Muhammad’s death in 632 AD when Khalif Abu Bakr gave Zaid Ibn Thabit, one of The Prophet’s companions, the task of writing it. The third Khalif Othman then announced the definitive Madina version in 665 AD. Several other versions were gathered up and burned.

But the Suras, or verses, of the Quran did not answer all the questions of a changing society so Muslim clerics sought further scriptural authorities for interpreting Islamic law. Two hundred years later the celebrated Al-Bukhari added examples from the life of The Prophet as the Hadith. He traveled the entire Muslim world to compile most of it. But he, appalled by the credulity of people, on his own authority rejected 99.6 % of the 600,000 pious contributions offered to him.

I believe that Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Nanak and others were great mortal human beings who were later called prophets. Re Muhammad I dont think he ever called himself a prophet but a messenger and a warner. The Arabs had a complex that the Jews and Christiabs had their prophets so they called Muhammad a prophet too after his sudden and unexpected death.

The Capture of Christianity Re: # 128

I completely fail to understand anything remotely islamist about my work, life or thoughts.

I was never brought up as a muslim and do not like any religion. I believe in an undefinable cosmis creator and consider all religions as man made institutions that stand between man and god.

The Capture of Christianity Re: # 117

Dear Sattar2.

I am very glad that the discussion is getting back to the subject of the article.

Neither I or anyone can do more than tease tiny bits of evidence from a 2000 year old `cold case'. I do not want to be an iconoclast but am personally very interested in the process of how mythology took command of the facts of history to make an inquiry into the possible facts of history heresy or even blasphemy.

All religious and spiritual ideas influence all the others and the influence of Buddhism on Jesus cannot be denied as a real possibility... but it is short of being a provable fact. He was even mocked and called a sophist who Alexander's Mcedonians described as the detatched believers in the Great Sophie from whom the word Sufi was also probably derived. There are no final words to history and many interesting possibilities.

I do not personally attribute blind respects for any prophet. What made a prophet sacred? Who decided that the dreams or experiences of any mortal human were divine? If the Old Testament is to be believed many prophets like Abraham had many human failings like passing off his beautiful wife Sarah as his sister and benefitting getting her married to the Pharaoe.

I believe that everyone has the right to explore this terrain and resist the efforts of the orthodox, of all schools of belief, who want us to blindly believe myths like the ressurrection, virgin birth, The Prophets night ride to Jerusalem, etc., as a matters of faith that cannot be examined.

The Psyche of Al-Qaeda I have just read this interesting article and some of the many interacts. I think you might find the extract from an article I wrote last year of interest:

All religions preach the faith of their founders but they also carry a huge baggage of customs that are social rather than spiritual. Easter and Christmas were never part of the teachings of Christ while Eid and Ramzan were ancient Arab customs that long predated the advent of Islam. Revenge was also an old Arab custom that has unfortunately become a part of the Muslim tradition worldwide. Revenge had been a necessary survival custom in the precarious times when small tribes of Arab Bedouins had to protect themselves from bigger or more powerful tribes who, without the fear of revenge, could easily loot or molest them.

Life in the desert was always very tenuous and there was fierce competition over the scarce sources of food or water. Individuals could not survive except with the protection of the bonds of blood within their tribes and through alliances with other tribes. This was expressed in the Arab ideology of Muruwah that not only meant manliness, pride and courage but endurance in suffering, protection of the weak, avenging each and every injustice and boldly defying stronger enemies regardless of the consequences.

Oppressors had to therefore be very careful for this well established tribal code made it certain that any injustice would be avenged at some future date. Regardless of power and position no one could ever be absolutely safe from attack, had to tolerate lesser tribes and be very careful not to incite any serious animosity.

The American cowboy glorification of revenge arose out of similar compulsions among numerous isolated ranchers who, far from legal remedies, had to protect themselves from their potential oppressors. Paradoxically today we see America’s cowboy spirit pitted against the Muruwah spirit of the Muslim world that views America as an oppressor.

This Muruwah was an old Arab custom so modern Islam does not need to glorify hatred and vengence as the El Quida so proudly advocates

The Capture of Christianity I do wish all of you could move forward from mainly Hindu- Muslim perspectives and let some Christian comments come through.

I cannot believe that there are no Christian viewers on Chawk.

The Capture of Christianity Re: # 85

Great stuff but what happened to christianity that is the main concern of this article.

I'm surprised that an army of Baptists, Seventh day adventists, Mormons and other Christians have not pounced upon this piece and tried to tear it shreads.

The Capture of Christianity Re: # 61

This is much more to the point.

Why should any of you care if I am a crypto islamist or closet commie or not. I know what I am so I am not insulted if you choose to call me a giraffe or anything else.

I felt that this article had several much more important issues to examine like:

• Does the available evidence give a clear story of what actually happened at the crucifixion?

• Is there a real possibility that Jesus was not dead when he was removed from the cross?

• Do the witnesses to the resurrection or ascension seem reliable?

• Is the idea of Jesus being an Essne, Nazarene or Buddhist seem credible?

• There are old tombs of Jesus, Moses and Mary in or near Kashmir but why have they not been researched more with DNA and dating of the corpses. Etc.?

• Should the words of St Paul who never heard Jesus in person be taken seriously?

• Is there substance that the religion of Jesus has been captured by Paul?

• Was Jesus really a Jew and why has Christianity become a Gentile faith?

• How idolatory has crept back into the Christian idea?

Surely these or similar topics are more relevant.

Regards

Murad

The Capture of Christianity Many interactors are questioning my motives in writing as I do. I would like to say that I have many very diverse interests I am a sincere and deeply interested student of history and comparitive religion and have been constantly amazed at how mythology has clouded and confused both history and religious ideas among all faiths.

I am planning to do a book on this subject at some time and find that many of the numerous interacts are very useful in showing some of the weaknesses in the conjectures while many interacts have added valuable ideas and information. So there is no need to question my motives and I am delighted with the knowledge and wisdom that many of you have offered.

Concerning this article I had done some serious study but seem to have mainly atttracted responses with a Hindu or Islamic focus. While these are interesting I am more interested to have Christian reactions. After 2000 years the facts are hazy and the witnesses unreliable so please agree or disagree with me on the substance of the facts and conjectures.

The Capture of Christianity May I also request all of you to please stick to the subject. We are trying to examine a very old and rather cold trail about Jesus and the evolution of Christianity that has very little to do with Islam or Hinduism. So lets examine whatever we know about Christianity without any prejudices.

Please also do not try that old ploy of trying to shoot the messenge. Do please be objective and comment on the message without religious or other prejudices.

The Capture of Christianity Re: # 2

Pl read my article on the hijacking of Islam on Chowk before making a statement like that. You will see from the several interacts that there were many who would completely disown me as any form of Islamiat.

And, if you read my article on `faith and religion' on Chowk I think you will be in no doubt that I am neither an islamist or believer in any religion.

I love the founders of all faiths but loathe the professional priests who created religions to enslave the masses.

Pl do me a favour and read these before calling me names.

Hindu Hegemony Dear Laddu old friend.

You repeat yourself so I repeat my reply of interact 88

Please be a sweet round thing instead of a nitpicker that this interact suggests.

Also please shoot at the message and not the messenger. I may not read Sanskrit or Pali or Tamil and you may not read Arabic or Presian or Pali but that does not mean that sincere translations are invalid. Meat is meat in any language and regardless of whether the meat is of a bull or cow it is still beef.

But you have a point in that Gao may well have meant a bull because almost all the meat we eat is male. One Male can service dozens of females so almost all the meat or chicken that we eat is female.

The economic and social situation in Bali a thousand years ago is not concerned with Hindu ideas of today.

Diet has nothing to do with religion but are social and economic customs relevant to their times.

The references to the sources have all been mentioned.

And I have to also add that I have applied my mind to the subject of bullshit, where you seem to be willing to accept my expertise, just as seriously as I apply myself to any other subject.

Hindu Hegemony Re: # 125

Regarding the medical benefits or evils of eating meat or beef pl read:

Manu, in his law book, the Manusmriti says that it is a divine rule to eat meat on sacrificial occasions or while honoring the gods or guests. He attests that… `animals were created for the sake of sacrifice and that killing for ritual occasions is non-killing because all sacrificial foods attain higher levels of existence’.

The eating of beef or meat is also mentioned in several ancient medical texts. The treatise of Caraka Samhita, so important in Ayurveda, lists 28 animals including cows, whose flesh is recommended for the cure of various ailments. It describes the benefits of beef for disorders of wind, catarrh and irregular fever. Caraka specifically recommends a gruel of beef gravy soured with pomegranates as a remedy for prolonged fever.

Pl be objective and do not allow your personal convictions to colour your writing.

Hindu Hegemony Re: # 118

You perhaps mean that Indians are more intelligent or capable of complex thinking than Arabs but I don't think linking intellect to any religion is either right, fair or politically correct.