Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis #195 Posted by Kulharee on June 23, 2008 8:06:46 pm
{"...Chuhay, ...Your brain is still stuck in 6th century Arabia, and you think like a monkey. I believe that my prophet of Allah Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came to reform Islam, ... Trust me, Ahmadis are not going to believe in garbage like Jesus coming down on a broomstick and landing in Damascus."}

Mr. Kulharee,
If you do not seek immediate and expert attention for your Tourette Syndrome affliction, rest assured that someday someone is going to find a more suitable use for that broomstick and it might get very painful for you. Shalom!

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis #193 Posted by sattar2 on June 23, 2008 4:40:34 pm

Salim (#190),

You are getting too obsessed with kulharee. ... Your view is childish and based on insecurities. Ahmadi-Muslims are not your problem. Ummah’s problem are goons like Osama, zeemax, and Urstruly … all too bent on blowing others up. Open your eyes, you idiot! Like I said, in some ways you used to be an intelligent man …"}

Sattar Sahib,
I have about as "thick a skull" and am as much an "idiot" as your Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is a "prophet" of Allah. Just because you pontificate something doesn't automatically make it accurate.

I am, however, indebted to Mr. Kulharee for opening my eyes regarding the "innocence" of the Qadianis. You may consider him an idiot and an embarrassment, but to many Muslims like me, he has decisively explained why the Government and people of Pakistan were justified in declaring the Qadianis to be non-Muslim.

Thank you for discussing this issue with me.

The Puppet Speaks #30 Posted by _arjun5 on June 23, 2008 4:25:39 pm
{"you're bragging about what will happen in the future...
if wishes were horses, pakis would ride... "}

Arjun,
And you are stuck in the recent past recycling the stale mantra of the neo-cons. Soon you will go the way of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and others. When Cheney's cousin gets inaugurated, you guys will see a marked difference about the way a responsible President conducts foreign policy. Ride 'em shoot 'em days are over and a new sheriff is coming to town. I am predicting the future.

...and BTW, the shine in "India Shining" is also over inflated.

The Puppet Speaks #28 Posted by _arjun5 on June 23, 2008 3:06:16 pm
{"indians aren't being whacked by drones...indians aren't being sold to club gitmo.. "}

Arjun,
Wait till Modi ends up in De Hague. Kaheen ka din kaheen ki raat. :)

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis ...and here is Mr. Kulharee's reaction to my post #190. He posted his comment on my ilog:

Posted by Kulharee on Monday June 23, 2008 02:59 pm

Fuck you Mr. Chuhay and a lot of 6th century Arbi Camel lovers.

The Puppet Speaks #14 Posted by majumdar on June 23, 2008 2:34:08 am
{"Harishbhai,
Our PM is a puppet too.
Regards "}

MAJ Bhai,
You are so right about that one. One of the compelling reasons for Mushy to bend over for Bushy was the spectacle of Swifty Vajpayee doing the can can for the Americans with his dhoti lifted all the wap up to his lips.

The Puppet Speaks {"It may not make much sense to President Karzai but he should understand that blindly towing the line of the US is not good for the fragile peace and stability of the region. In the long run, it is also not in the interest of Afghanistan that is connected to Pakistan with ethnic, cultural and geographical bonds."}

Naqvi Sahib,
Very well-written article with some sound advice for the colorful Karzai. How soon has he forgotten his debt to the land that provided shelter and aid to him and his people during the Communist occupation! Does he remember that India never opposed that Soviet invasion of Afaghanistan?

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis #173 Posted by Ranger8117 on June 21, 2008 3:09:04 am

{"Salim you a$$hole, where were you all these days ? Why are you avoiding unplugged?"}

Gujju,
I had taken some time off to address personal and work-related business. While I was away, I noticed that there was no point in exchanging nonsense with people on Unplugged.

You will be pleased to note that right-wing Muslim-hating and Paki-bashing Indians have taken over Chowk UP with the ardent support of some very pusillanimous spineless Injun-bum licking Paki minions.

Now, let's cheer for the Turks to make some Wienerschnitzels. :)

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis #175 Posted by sattar2 on June 21, 2008 5:44:16 am
{"Kulharee ...
I personally think you play with words but don’t mean anything nasty about the Prophet (pbuh); you probably do it just to annoy the ummah. This is not a good idea … as it creates ill will ... which translates into more persecution of Ahmadi-Muslims. That’s my 2 cents; I hope you’ll rethink."}



#184 Posted by Kulharee on June 22, 2008 12:34:37 pm

{"Nazi ki aulad, until you get our names rights, until you put Nabee Allah in front of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmadi (the leader of all Payghambers, and second only to Allah) until you address us with respect that we deserve, I refuse to entertain your silly stupid questions that you took out of a stupid 6th century Arbi camel's butthole (where your other beliefs also came out of)..."}

Sattar Sahib,
Despite your persistent and sensible advice to the contrary, Mr. Kulharee is adamant on continuing his insults against Our Holy Prophet (PBUH). In light of this obvious propensity to blasphemy, one must ask the following questions:

1. While Mr. Kulharee may not represent the entire community of the followers of the Qadiani religion, he is more than just a crackpot. He has written articles about the Qadiani religion and is the most ardent and vocal advocate for Qadiani rights on Chowk. Therefore, does he belong to a peculiar sect of Qadianis who condone the most vulgar and profane insults against Our Holy Prophet (PBUH)?

2. If Mr. Kulharee's tendency is to retaliate for abuse against Mirza Ghulam Ahmed with an immediate insult to Our Holy Prophet (PBUH), isn't it fair to say that in the "THEM VS US" context, at least for some Qadianis, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed belongs to Qadianis and The Holy Prophet (PBUH) belongs to Muslims?

3. If Mr. Kulharee so easily resorts to insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH), isn't it fair to conclude that, at least in some Qadiani circles, it is permissible to resort to that type of vulgarity against the most sacred person in Islam?

4. Given these facts and defining Muslims as those who follow the religion of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), isn't it obvious that even some Qadianis, of the type or sect represented by Mr. Kulharee, do not consider themselves to be Muslims or followers of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)?

It is bad enough to associate false "prophets" after Our Holy Prophet (PBUH), but to defile the sacred name of the founder of Islam is tantamount to provoking Muslims and taunting them to do something about it. May Allah have mercy on the Qadianis for their blasphemous, insidious, treacherous, and treasonous behavior.

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis # 165 {"That often happens when one learns knew facts that one"}

should be

That often happens when one learns new facts that one

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis #161 Posted by sattar2 on June 19, 2008 10:35:39 pm

Sattar Sahib,
Just as a matter of clarification, my views concerning Qadianis not being Muslims are not meant to necessarily convey any connotations regarding good/bad or Pakistani/non-Pakistani attributes.

You, even as a Qadiani, may be a very good person and Chacha Sahib, as a genuine Muslim, for all we know, could be a not so good person. A Qadiani soldier as a patriotic Pakistani would be a better Pakistani than a Sunni or Shia Muslim Pakistani who is a traitor selling out to Indians. My comments are strictly based on behavior and beliefs expressed by several Qadianis.

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis #158 Posted by Kulharee on June 19, 2008 1:11:37 pm

{"Salim, there is something inherently wrong with you, that’s why I don’t blame you. People usually start drinking after they get married. You just do everything backwards. There is hope that one day you will convert to the real Islam – Ahmadiyyah."}

Mr. Kulharee,
Don't hold your breath. There is a far greater chance of you becoming a nun than I becoming a Qadiani.

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis #161 Posted by sattar2 on June 19, 2008 10:35:39 pm

{"Salim (#133),
You used to be an intelligent man in a lot of ways; in a lot of ways that’s no longer the case. You’ve mischaracterized the issue, your facts are incorrect, and your reasoning is lame. Other than that you may have a point!"}

Sattar Sahib,
I am sorry to disappoint you with my loss of intelligence. That often happens when one learns knew facts that one did not know before and those who formerly agreed with one no longer find one so pleasing - or rather intelligent. :)

My experience is based on, not one but two, self-proclaimed Qadiani Chowkies. They have openly insulted the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in the most vulgar and profane words and depictions imaginable. Because one of them is a frequent writer on Qadiani issues, I must attribute his blasphemy on some basis of Qadiani propensity for insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Perhaps some Qadianis perceive the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) as a rival for Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's claim to being Allah's Messenger (Nauzbillah - God forbid - Aztaghfirullah).

{"Merely claiming that Ahmadi beliefs violate Islamic principles … is not enough. You need to validate this view. As far as I know, Quran and ahadith both support continuation of prophethood. What you and your ullema believe is your business, not mine. However, when you criticize others, you need to validate your viewpoint."}

Just the fact that you call yourself "Ahmadi" is a validation that you follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmed rather than the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). You may consider Our Holy Prophet (PBUH) as some sort of an obscure Prophet Jonah or Zakaria, but you certainly are not among his followers like the overwhelming majority of Muslims. If your beliefs were Muslim beliefs, you would not be referring to them as "Ahmadi beliefs."

My viewpoints are not influenced by any Ulema and I certainly don't need a convoluted misinterpretation of the Holy Koran or some obscure Hadith to corrupt my beliefs. God knows, enough people are doing that in the name of "Islam" already. Apparently, a devious and insidiously anti-Islamic person can justify murder, oppression of women, violence against women, slaughter of unbelievers, and even illiteracy by quoting some out of context verse of the Holy Koran or a Hadith manufactured as a pretext. The finality of the Prophethood of Our Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is the second most important belief of Muslims and NOTHING is going to convince us of the contrary.

There have been numerous false "messengers" in history and the mental institutions of the Islamic world, especially in UP, India were always caring for one Abraham, or Jesus, or Moses, or even Adam.

{"You cannot justifiably project comments of a few (one?) people as views of the whole community. Would it be fair if Muslims were demonized on basis of the views of Osama? Think carefully before responding. Check the writings of Mirza Sahib and Ahmadi-Muslim views on Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) before shooting off your mouth."}

Of course I can learn from the beliefs and expression of one, two, or more Qadianis as a metric for the beliefs of this religion. Either the profane Qadianis represent some other sect of your religion or you just act in a more civilized manner. In any case you have never publicly condemned or even disagreed with their profanity and insults. As for Osama or Zawahiri and others, many Muslims, including me, have openly condemned and rejected those extremist and clearly un-Islamic views. To me these irrational, bloody, and mistaken fools are still Muslim because they have not denied God or denied Our Holy Prophet (PBUH) as the final Messenger of Allah. This should give you an indication of where you rank.

{"In Quran Allah uses terms “Messenger” and “Prophet” for Muhammad (pbuh) and others. You are not in a position to trademark these terms and limit their use. Quran is your Book just as much as mine, Allah is your God just as much as mine, Muhammad (pbuh) is your prophet just as much as mine. You cannot take away my right to believe in them … you cannot force me to consider myself a non-Muslim."}

You yourself have taken away your "right" to be called Muslims, by corrupting the message of Islam, insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH), spreading disinformation about Islam to the world, and trying to dismantle the religion from within. The Muslim Ummah has recognized this malicious attitude and has correctly branded you as non-Muslim. Of course Allah is everyone's God - even of those who don't believe in Him. Also, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is everyone's prophet - even of those who dump garbage upon him, including Qadianis who associate false "prophets" after him and hurl insults and profanity upon his name.

Sattar Sahib,
If a Muslim disrespects Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and some Qadianis respond with insults against the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as retaliation against Muslims, doesn't it follow that the Qadianis must consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as theirs and the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as the Muslims'? So much for your statement about the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) being YOUR prophet as much as mine.

{"Your claims of exclusive rights over divinity will drag us to back to the Dark Ages. You may want to go there; I don’t.

No one is asking you to have “respect and affection” for Mirza Sahib. Neither am I asking non-Muslims to have respect and affection for Prophet Muhamamd (pbuh). People believe what they will … and life goes on."}

Sattar Sahib,
Why are Qadianis so hung up on the status of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a "prophet" or a "messenger?" There have been numerous reformers in Islamic history and most of them were neither insecure nor selfish to demand a status equaling that of Our Holy Prophet (PBUH). If Qadianis were genuine reformers, they should have impressed the Muslim community with their reforms and not put the issue of "prophethood" as their main reform. Ibn-e-Rushd, Ibn-e-Sina, Jaffer Al Sadiq, Jalaluddin Rumi, Moeenuddin Chishti, Saleemuddin Chishti, and many others tried to reform Islam but not one of them was selfish or stupid enough to demand "prophethood." When Bahaullah in Iran attempted this, the Baha’is themselves chose to leave Islam rather than insult their former religion by insisting that Muslims accept their leader as a prophet.

{"You may consider Ahmadis heretics - that’s your business. But you go too far when you support imprisoning Ahmadis for considering themselves Muslims. Your argument based on “laws of democratically elected government” would also justify legalized racial discrimination against African Americans. I hope you see the futility, nay - the dangers, of your views."}

Given the facts about Mirza Ghulam Ahmed claiming to be a "prophet" or "messenger" of Allah, I do not consider Qadianis to be heretics - I consider them to be non-Muslims and therefore deserving of the same courtesy, safeguards, and respect that I would have for Jews, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, and Sikhs. I will not say that you are wrong, false, or mistaken - I will just say that you are not Muslim. The Catholic Church would have done far worse to stamp out deviations from what they consider mainstream. There were many "crusades" against Arians and other forms of heresy. I think that Islam has been far kinder to its aberrations - the Druzes, Alawites, Kharajites, and Wahabbis have not suffered as much as their Christian counterparts. But of course, the Qadianis have gone far far beyond these aberrations.

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis #163 Posted by jang on June 20, 2008 5:03:15 am

{"salim yar among its many good properties which make islam whole and true, tribalism is one of them. islam we know has its roots in tribalism of arabia. so leaving a tribe by an individual is no problem. but weakening the tribe is correctly seen as a potential mortal blow and it therfore treated as treason."}

Jang,
Almost all human existence is rooted in some sort of tribalism - especially Judaism (12 tribes etc...)and even Hinduism (color coded caste totem pole, etc...), so let's not attach specific tribal attributes to Islam. On the contrary, Islam was among the first international movements to erase tribal, ethnic, and caste distinctions.

As for leaving Islam, if people didn't make a big deal of their departure there would be few problems. Our own Hamidumdum Sahib has been long gone and, as far as we can tell, he is still alive and kicking. Only the people who want to gain notoriety, some profits from mediocre books and TV appearances, or to claim all kinds of asylum-related advantages, sound their departure with trumpets and drums.

Don't ask don't tell would be the proper approach to leaving an association with which one no longer wants any connection. A person can be a Qadiani without having to draw attention to his/her affliction by insulting Islam, its Holy Prophet (PBUH), and its symbols.

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis #155 Posted by _arjun5 on June 19, 2008 12:45:05 pm
{"and we all know what made salim change his views and become such a big defender of mo.."}

Arjun,
By now you may have realized that I am a devout, loyal, grateful, and genuine follower of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). He is central to my thoughts, my beliefs, my actions, even my mere existence. I would much rather call myself a Mohammedan, because I respect the Holy Prophet (PBUH) to a degree just short of worship.

Naturally, anyone who insults my Holy Prophet (PBUH) is not going to be my friend and any cause, faith, individual, entity, or organization that condones, encourages, and especially commits such blasphemy is not going find me the least bit compassionate about its interests. I think I stated that very clearly.

Now, you can appreciate why certain Hindus, Qadianis, and even so-called Muslims and Pakistanis are on my shit list.

Restoring the Civil Rights of Ahmadis #155 Posted by _arjun5 on June 19, 2008 12:45:05 pm

{"and we all know what made salim change his views and become such a big defender of mo..it's the whole on again off again relationship he's had...with the bottle.. "}

Arjun,
I would like to stay away from discussing personal issues. Since you brought up the matter of the bottle, I am pleased to inform you that, thanks to my wife, I have not consumed any alcohol in over three years. When I made the comments sympathetic to Qadianis, I was abstaining from alcohol just as much as I avoid the stuff today. While I did drink frequently during my early youth, I was never an alcoholic and any charges of such connotation are baseless.