We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Dear Pinku,
For two days, you have been indoctrinating me about the evils of Islam, the rape and pillage of Hindu women, forced conversions, and the unbelievably cruel torture of clothing semi-naked Hindu women.

Pinku, yaar, this doesn't compoot.

1. If Muslims were such ardent rapists, why would they clothe Hindu women? It seems to me that their semi-nude appearance would be more in conformance with the professed mission.

2. If Muslims were on a rampage of pillage and plunder, why would they deliberately provide clothing to these half-naked women? Wouldn't it be more profitable to rip off whatever little clothing they had in the first place?

3. If the rest of your rhetoric is similarly based in logic, I can understand why we are not communicating properly.

Sincerely,
Salim Chuhan

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Cliftonbridge,
Please allow me to explain my disappointment with your comments regarding this article.

If you were to write an article, let's say something about the need for women to receive equal pay for equal work, I would support you in presenting an important issue that affects not only women, but little men who depend on their mothers' incomes. Now, if I were to say "Yeah Yeah, but you are ignoring the other main issues affecting women such as breast cancer, domestic violence, and sexual exploitation, you too would be dissapointed. I think you get my point. Thanks.
Salim Chauhan

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! cliftonbridge #187 {"So based on modi's re-election would you say at least 50% of gujratis believed state sponsored ethnic cleansing was justified? ..your answer to all the above qu's is "please avoid bringing Modi issue" .... lol...arjun tells us DeNile is not just a river in Egypt.
"}

Cliftonbridge,
This was effective. Good to see you back! :)

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Dear HP Sahib,
I don't know why I am arguing with you. When you are not distracted by the need to score personal points or make jabs at Urdu-speakers from Karachi, you demonstrate occasional bouts of both brilliance and logic. I am going to allow you to debate yourself by jogging your memory with the following posts from your more rational side - please let me know which HP wins the debate:

From: Hotel Babylon: The Marriot Hotel Explosion

Posted by HP Sep 21, 2008 03:28 pm

A second attempt of this magnitude would actually bring the Zardari's government down and if something like this happens the people in Pindi should just start walking over the President House, the army House, the Parliament and the prime Minister house. People in Pakistan are so fed up that they should commit a mass suicide to stop the litany of nonsense by some major fukups leading the army and the country.

The US can be present in FATA with cooperation from the Pakistan army. After all Pakistan has never said no to providing bases to the US.


Emerging Pakistan-U.S. relations

Posted by HP Sep 20, 2008 03:31 pm

Initially, it was good to use the Pak army agents as alqaeeda or Taliban in the area to maintain the occupation but now I think it is beyond the Pak army and the ISI. They have lost control and that worries the US.

Emerging Pakistan-U.S. relations

Posted by HP Sep 20, 2008 02:17 pm

Alqaeeda is a hoax but there is no doubt that Taliban are a reality. They are supported by the people in FATA. I think some of us get caught up in the conspiracy theories too. The US does not have enough army to fight these folks in FATA and that is why they are pressing Pakistan to help out.

For the last six years the US paid every single dollar spent on the 100,000 Pakistani army posted in the tribal areas but results are not encouraging.

posted this on Pavo ilog but it is appropriate to post it here too.(RE:Gen Aziz's article Pavo posted.)

So first he establishes his credibility by calling OBL search a hoax. A conclusion that many analyst before have mentioned-including Yours truly- on many occasions.
But really the thrust of the article is to redeem the army and I think it is part of the concerted efforts by the GHQ and ISI.

He is blaming everything on everyone but he never says what role the Pak army played. Instead he refers to Pak army involvement developed in bits and pieces. Then he claims this:

"The reason for its entry was simply state terrorism: we were terrorised into supporting this war on 'terrorism', which has now become "our war", since we have no other way to justify it"

Does he really think we are chutia or the Pak army thinks that it can again fool people in believing this non-sense?

Pavo and Ijaz, you two are far more politically savvy to buy this crap.

The Army is the US partner in the drama that is being played out in Afghanistan and FATA. Now the US has two dimwit politicians playing the game and the army is breathing long and deep to pump air in to its chest again.

Wasn't it clear to you from the beginning that the civilian in Pakistan are being set up to save the army for another day?

After seven years of complying with the US policies, Gen. Kayani is trying to be the only patriot left in Pakistan to dump the whole thing in the civilians lap.

Zardari is no genius and he has not much left in Pakistan. So he will do his job...of being the stop gap person until the army is ready to take over again.

Article like this(Gen Aziz) will appear regularly in Pakistani press,and we will see more dimwits on TV praising the army for its great stand against the US.

Exonerate the army at your own peril.
----
A word about Zardari. He really can't outfox anyone unless the person is ready to be outfoxed. Let us be clear here Altaf Hussain was the first person to pump Zardari for the President's slot. Do we not know where Altaf Hussain got this revelation from?

Zardari as politician is extremely vulnerable due to his past shenanigans. His vulnerability makes him the most manipulatable politician in Pakistan and he is one risk with the lowest cost for both the army and the US.

What is going for him is that the Pak awam are a little more sharper now and many see the game as it is being played out. Some Journalists have finally woken up too after living on lifafa all their lives.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Pinku #149,
My friend, you are much more interesting and credible when you blame Islam for covering up the semi-nude Hindu women of yesteryear.

I have never felt so ashamed of my religion until you told me that. Peace!

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! nkg #150 {"Salim...
Orrisa etc... are group clashes and these petty law and order matter is generaly resolved by local administration...
It does not need multinational force like ISAF to intervene and bomb.... "}

nkg,
Marriott etc ... are individual cases and such petty suicide matter is generally resolved by local 911 operators ...It does not need multinational force like NATO to intervene and bomb ... but then do these Einsteins know that Afghanistan is nowhere near the North Atlantic?

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! nkg #147 {"Post 1990, Indians are more concerned about their economic prosperity, than what is happening elsewhere...."}

Dear nkg,
...and I share their concern. Between Indian whiz kids in the US, running our financial system into the ground with their greed for rapid commissions, and the Indian call center diplomats pissing off every customer, the economic prosperity of both countries is on the endangered list.

You better get used to converting Indian technology to sending high-tech e-mails to the citizens of this world in imitation of the success of the Nigerian whiz kids.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Arjun #131 {"how can chronology point to ANYTHING...
lets see...the sun rises, the sun sets, the sun rises, sun sets...bomb goes off outside the marriot..ergo, the chronology of events points to the sun..."}

Arjun,
Please don't distract yourself from counting "Pakiwhackers."
Logic is not your forte, but counting (as long as percentages are not used) becomes you.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Ijaz_gul #136

Ijaz Sahib,
Thank you for setting the historical record straight. If I am not mistaken, Gen. Zia seized power in a coup in 1977, hanged Bhutto in 1979, and was solidly on Iraq's side during the Iran-Iraq war lasting almost throughout the 80s. The Persian Gulf became the Arab Gulf despite there already being an Arabian Sea. And, of course Khuda Hafiz became Allah Hafiz - a desperately chauvinistic act of Arab hegemony in the Islamic world. Zia was a faithful servant of his Wahaboobi overlords. Didn't the covering of the head by PTV newsladies also occur during Zia's term? I have some weak recollection of this in the mid to late 80s.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! HP #130
The JI has never been a powerhouse in Pakistani elections. It gained influence primarily during the reign of Zia Ul Haque. Please don't blame the fabric of Pakistani society for the disproportional power of JI.

Zia used force and intimidation to change Pakistani society. Is it any wonder that his beneficiaries, the religious extremists from Lal Masjid to Bajaur are now using violence to win the minds and hearts of Pakistanis?

Unfortunately, they forget that minds and hearts are more useful when they are contained within living and breathing Pakistanis.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! nkg #142,
Yes, and Muslim fanatics are roving all over Orissa persecuting Christians, while you and your BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/Sp/SS goons look for ISI and Paki agents under every rock.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #132 Posted by cliftonbridge on September 24, 2008 5:16:53 pm

{"Hp is totally right about IJI only being a hop skip and jump from AQ. Extremism in Pakistan has been fostered by society at large and propped up by civilian and military leaders for that very reason."}

Cliftonbridge,
...and just how big a percentage of votes do the religious parties get during elections in Pakistan?

So, please don't blame the society at large for injecting religious extremism. Jinnah created Pakistan, a separate Muslim state, perhaps he too was a religious extremist. If you cannot distinguish between the institutionalized religious extremism of Zia and the so-called "secular" Islamic viewpoint of Jinnha, then you are contradicting yourself once again. The only way Zia succeeded in planting his mutated version of Soodi Islam was because of the power of the military.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #140 Posted by majumdar on September 24, 2008 9:05:39 pm
{"Salimbhai,

Both accurate and entertaining at the same time, an usual hallmark of all your FP articles. Will leave behind comments in details later, esp Kashmir-Hyd."}

Majumdar Bhai,

Thank you for your positive feedback and I look forward to your dependably polite and interesting comments.

I am rather disappointed by some of my usual detractors. Not one of them noticed the main theme of the article. They could not comprehend or refused to acknowledge that curbing military spending, restructuring the army on a national service model, and relying on tactical nuclear weapons, instead of the customary expensive toys, will help resolve many of Pakistan's problems.

Some of these Peter Luger vegetarians argued passionately in the defense of their respective sacred cows. One so-called Pakistani even suggested that just because Mahmud Ghaznavi destroyed Hindu temples, religious extremism was already present in Pakistan long before Zia enforced Nizam-e-Mustafa. Of course the fact that "Major Daddy" was part of the ruling clique did not prejudice this selectively logical expert on Pakistan.

Another Pakistani interactor, more resourceful than the first one, reconfigured historical events to prove that religious extremism was really a Karachi-based Mohajir conspiracy that forced Zia to become a pawn in their grip. Our very liberal Morse code enthusiast attributed the spread of extremism to the lack of razor blades in the rank and file of the Pak military.

Most of the Indians had a very simple suggestion for so-called "moderate" Muslim Pakistanis. Forget Kashmir, abandon Islam, and engage the extremists in one hell of a civil war. They really don't care who prevails as long as both sides lose with maximum losses.

Of course, like most things on Chowk, there is no absolute truth, logic, or vision. Everything is relative to one's personal agenda, personal associations, and the viewpoints of a person's allies and of course, whose ox is being gored.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! The problem with Pakistanis is that their support or opposition to issues and debates are tainted by their personal circumstances, their own personal agendas, and their personal relationships with the proponents or opponents of issues. Cliftonbridge is definitely pro-Pak military because of daddy mommy. HP is trying to pin the military support pin on the Karachi Mohajir donkey. Hamidumdum can't see beyond Urstruly's kosher beard. Maybe the terrorists will win, after all - the so-called "moderates" have to check with their bankers, financial advisors, families, boy friends, and mistresses before they can take sides on any issue.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #115 Posted by cyclone on September 24, 2008 3:01:08 pm

{"#113 Salim pi, iss hammam may sab hi nangay hain :) You're in Turkey and I'm in the US, and the doctors are in the US...so we are all sitting pretty outside of Pakistan. At least we love pakistan. "}

Cycle Cone Bhayya,
Au contraire mon frere. We are all in different form of undress. Some migrated as young children, some were born in diaspora, while others took full advantage of the meager medical instruction facilities of the poor country of Pakistan, got their training, and then rapidly absconded overseas, especially to USA, in pursuit of the almighty dollar, reneging on their hypocritical oath of serving the poor people of Pakistan. Of course, they used their daddy's influence, thank you military of Pakistan, to gain admission to these facilities in the first place.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Hamidumdum #124,
You can agree with HP and HP can agree with cliftonbridge who can agree with Chaltahai who can agree with Arjun, but the chronology of events points the finger directly at the Pakistani military establishment for creating, funding, recruiting, arming, and supporting the current breed of Tally Ban/Al Kayda extremists busy in the FATA area - yes the ones who seem to have blown up the Marriott and several other edifices.