We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Pinku #82 {"Once you are done helping Pakistan, help country like Sudan and the people there.. more rapes and more fights are being done

Women in India used to wear very little clothes before Islam arrived "}

Pinku,
Finally we agree on two things - at least.
Yes, what is happening in Sudan is a war crime, genocide, and cruelty at its worst.
Yes, I blame Islam for covering up Hindu women. Why can't these stupid Arabs mind their own business?
Thanks to Bollywood, happy days are here again. :)

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Pinku #77 {"Arabs are not content with 500 million slaves in Pakistan. Indian and Bangladesh, they need more, because they have 2 billion christians (their traditional rivals) whom they are not able to handle. Plus because of their idiotic Islamic culture their slaves are much less capable then the slaves of Christianity (though 70% of those Christians are no more slaves of Christianity). Some in Arabs say Bahrain or UAE are less slave of Islam than south asian muslims. Overall, they cherish this slavery of south asian muslims, feel happy about it and invest billions to keep it that way but they have bigger problems at hand. Nobody worries about their slaves that much till they revolt. You are not revolting yet??"]

Pinku,
You know that I am a very generous multilingual person and quite easy to get along with. But your post, despite my attempts at using several languages and their composites, was totally incomprehensible. Can you please post in your native language. I am sure that I will get your point.

I don't know where you are getting your slavery issue and I also don't understand your point about percentages - 70% you mentioned. Fortunately, I have prior experience with Indians using percentages and the next thing you know, the market melted and the bailout happened and everyone in NYC got pink slips.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #64 Posted by rf786 on September 24, 2008 11:01:50 am
{"Salim Sahib

We have been killing each other well before the chowkidar started to clean his house, have you forgotten the sectarian killings of the last twenty years.

... what I cannot understand or justify is the suicide killings of innocent civilians in the name of revenge. If one was to take your rationalization then history is replete with hundreds and thousands of these tragedies but none resorted to killing of innocent civilians through suicide bombings.

Taking your argument then the Kharajees acted well within their right to go and kill those who differed in their religious beliefs for it was the state that created them. ..."}

Dear Radio Frequency Bismillah Bhai,
You know better than that. Of course, I am with you when you are talking against jihadi suicide bombers, Kharijites, Modi, BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SP/SS goons, JI/LeM, JeM, LeT, LTTE, and Pakistani renegades. There is no justification for causing mass murder, destruction, riots, rapes, slaughter, arson, and all other things that animals, disguised as humans, do for their own sadistic and murderous pleasure.

No, I was not providing a pretext for any violence, any terrorism, or any oppression of the many by the desperate few.

Let me also clarify that when I talk about an economic and prosperous Pakistan being a MAGNET for Kashmiris, I mean that in a peaceful and positive manner. I do not subscribe nor support the use of terrorism, jihadi suicide bombers, or even the Pak military to resolve the Kashmir dispute. That has to come from Kashmiris using their God-given right of self-determination.

I apologize for any misunderstanding.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Cliftonbridge #73 {"religious extremism, almost nonexistent until 1970s" wow thats some re-wrie of history! look i happen to be the progeny of the invaders but this is ridiculous ..... what do you call destruction of temples and forced conversions? "}

Cliftonbridge,
I thank you, the extinguished gentle lady from India, for expressing your anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistani views so forcefully. Modi would have been proud of you.

Now, that you obligate me to respond to you as if I was replying to an Indian, please allow me to rectify your bias a bit.

Temples were destroyed. Others were built. Sometimes by the same "invader." If the destruction of the Babri Masjid(caught on video tape for your viewing pleasure, Mr. Pinku), is an indication then this disease is not limited to Muslim invaders or their progeny. The conversion of the Grand Mosque of Cordoba in 1236 AD to a cathedral, or the numerous mosques in Athens converted to churches, are testaments to this diversity of religious extremism.

There may have been forced conversion - by Muslims, by Catholics, by Protestants, even by some Hindus. What do you think is going on in Orissa today? By the way, there is no longer any force over you, so please feel free to revert to your Dalit roots.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! Pinku #66 {"The initial conversion of Rajputs (and any other warrior people) to increase forces was done through rape and killing. The conversion through deception/lies/money/jobs came later. Their women were raped and the men were killed to make people understand that this is what the option they have if they don't convert to Islam and join their army."}

Dear Pinku,
That makes my Hindu blood boil. I represent that remark.
My ancestors converted to Islam, by the thousands, because they respected the bravery and honesty of their leader, Maharaja Aurangzeb. Please do not recycle stale old "Sword of Truth" propaganda from the BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SP/SS. These are the same people who claim that Nehru was a Muslim at heart and Indira was impregnated twice by two different Muslims and that both Sanjay and Rajiv were Muslims. You can lie all you want, but don't go overboard because then when you tell people that your name is Pinku they won't believe you.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #60 Salim_Chauhan

manufactured by the military in throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s,

should be

manufactured by the military throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s,

We all know that religious extremism, almost nonexistent until 1970s, what injected into the Pakistani psyche

should be:

We all know that religious extremism, almost nonexistent until 1970s, was injected into the Pakistani psyche

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #60 Posted by cliftonbridge on September 24, 2008 10:50:44 am

{"Foreign policy based on paranoia against india and religious extremism is something the masses are equally guilty of.

If people are complaining now its simply because the masses do not want to not pay the price of their own prejudices and want a bail out. ... The bubble burst - thats all that happened. "}

Cliftonbridge,
I apologize for not having responded earlier to your other points expressed above.

The paranoia against India and religious extremism are both primarily the result of the Pak Army's interference in the governmental, social, religious, commercial, and financial aspects of Pakistan. If the country had not been made so paranoid against India, how would Pakistan ever justify such a lop-sided ratio of military capacity vs national resources? This paranoia was manufactured by the military in throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even in this decade to justify the miitary expenditures - or to put it simply JOB SECURITY.

We all know that religious extremism, almost nonexistent until 1970s, what injected into the Pakistani psyche by none other than "President" Zia Ul Haque, who was also a General of the Pak Army, if you didn't already know that.

All your rhetoric regarding bailouts and bubbles bursting is merely your own paranoia about the current meltdown of the financial world in NYC. Thanks for your noteworthy comments.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #60 Posted by cliftonbridge on September 24, 2008 10:50:44 am

{"Salim nicely written but not completely true. The enemy is us but not just the ones of "us" in khaki."}

Cliftonbridge,
Please see my response to Quin in #38. By the way, I am not in khaki and yes I am in "us."

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! thinkingstorm #58 {"Salim pi,

please ignore chalta's and pinkus....it is just an attempt to derail the conversation into the old stalemate pakistani-indian arguments.

Let us discuss the topic at hand...
with much respect,
thinking storm "}

TS Pi,
As usual, thank you for restoring the equilibrium. Yes, we need to focus on:
1. Reducing our defense budget
2. Transforming the current model to a national service based one BOTH men and women serving their country.
3. Ensuring that Pakistan and its people are safe from external aggression and internal terrorism.
4. Allowing our elected representatives to make wise decisions that will fulfill the aspirations of the people without suppressing the rights of individuals and minorities.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #54 Posted by Pardesi on September 24, 2008 10:35:23 am
{"Salim, nice article

It's funny how both sides feel cheated. Hindu view has been that the Muslims got their own country and they have not left India completely and are here for another slice of India some time later. In fact during 60s' riots, a popular slogan by Muslims use to be "Baant ke liya hai Pakistan, Ladd ke lenge Hindustan".

Seriously though, time has come for all patriotic Pakistanis to think about action if they want to save their secular Pakistan. Fundo Pakistanis are already in action mode while the so called secular elites are still in 'ultimate objective' definition stage."}

Dear Pardesi,
When it comes to slogans and irrational chants, Muslims and Hindus (among others) need some professionally scripted lines. Even Sarah Palin delivers pretty good rhetoric when someone else has done the thinking. You already know how I feel about partition - IT WAS NOT NECESSARY.

As for Pakistan, it appears that all our 'sincere' friends want us to fight an all-out civil war. That is exactly the solution that most rational and progressive Pakistanis are trying to avoid.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! CreateAlpha #53 {"achcha, so discussing partition logic is equivalent to bringing in Modi. sounds like someone's crazy"}

Chalta,
No, it was the discussion of raping and pillaging that set off the automatic Modi sprinkler system. I don't think he orchestrated all that mayhem, death, rape, destruction, and slaughter because he was simply crazy.

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #49 Posted by pinku on September 24, 2008 10:22:43 am

{"Salim,
Till Islamic ego is ready to liberate places like Kashmir and eager to devour them, nothing can help you. Your reason and rationality will not work because it is subservient to Islamic ego (doesn't exist in front of that ego).

Pinku, all my responses to your comments are in BOLD.

My ego is not Islamic, just as yours is not Hindu. Ego by definition is something very personal.

{"Who the hell are you to liberate Kashmir?? Haven't you already done too much by liberating Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afganistan?? Go and liberate Saudi Arabia from Islam??"}"}

Obviously I am not doing enough to liberate Kashmir. However, the Kashmiris may demonstrate more zest in this noble task. Pakistan, Bangladesh are already free. Afghanistan and Soodi Arabia do require some help in becoming free. Thank you for pointing out the unfinished business.

{"People in south asia need to be liberated from Islamic ego and arab slavery (Ummaha). Once that happens everything will fall in order. It is slaevry of that identity of those who got converted by force/rape/lies/deception that create all the troubles."}

Fine, but what are we going to do about the hundreds of millions who are suffering in actual subservience to upper castes in India? I am sure that Arabs will be amazed at the number of slaves they own in South Asia - something like 500 million! The good thing about Modi was that he and his goons participated in rape/slaughter/mutilation/arson withtout the added insult of trying to convert their victims.

{"Unfortunately video camera didn't get invented early, else all we needed to show was the rape/killing of your ancestors in bulk to help you understand what you protect and for what end."}

Pinku,
Video cameras were already invented by 2002 and Modi and his BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SP/SS goons did videotape their looting/arson/murder/rape/mutilation/burnings of Muslims to help us all understand the truth behind Indian secularism, justice, and kindness - Jai Ram!

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #49 Posted by pinku on September 24, 2008 10:22:43 am

{"Salim,
Till Islamic ego is ready to liberate places like Kashmir and eager to devour them, nothing can help you. Your reason and rationality will not work because it is subservient to Islamic ego (doesn't exist in front of that ego).

Pinku, all my responses to your comments are in BOLD.

My ego is not Islamic, just as yours is not Hindu. Ego by definition is something very personal.

{"Who the hell are you to liberate Kashmir?? Haven't you already done too much by liberating Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afganistan?? Go and liberate Saudi Arabia from Islam??"}"}

Obviously I am not doing enough to liberate Kashmir. However, the Kashmiris may demonstrate more zest in this noble task. Pakistan, Bangladesh are already free. Afghanistan and Soodi Arabia do require some help in becoming free. Thank you for pointing out the unfinished business.

{"People in south asia need to be liberated from Islamic ego and arab slavery (Ummaha). Once that happens everything will fall in order. It is slaevry of that identity of those who got converted by force/rape/lies/deception that create all the troubles."}

Fine, but what are we going to do about the hundreds of millions who are suffering in actual subservience to upper castes in India? I am sure that Arabs will be amazed at the number of slaves they own in South Asia - something like 500 million! The good thing about Modi was that he and his goons participated in rape/slaughter/mutilation/arson withtout the added insult of trying to convert their victims.

{"Unfortunately video camera didn't get invented early, else all we needed to show was the rape/killing of your ancestors in bulk to help you understand what you protect and for what end."}

Pinku,
Video cameras were already invented by 2002 and Modi and his BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SP/SS goons did videotape their looting/arson/murder/rape/mutilation/burnings of Muslims to help us all understand the truth behind Indian secularism, justice, and kindness - Jai Ram!

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #48 Posted by CreateAlpha on September 24, 2008 10:15:58 am
{"He went to india because the ghazis were unleashed to rape adn pillage like their ancestors before them. get some perspective. It is gone now...no use crying over spilled milk."}

Chalta,
I don't quite understand the context, but if you can't do anything about the rapes and pillage perpetrated by Modi and his BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SP/SS goons in 2002, how can you be serious about the alleged ancestral rape and pillage from years gone by?

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #47 Posted by _arjun24 on September 24, 2008 9:54:56 am
{"No...The Indian position is "what I can keep, I'll keep..and there's not a damn thing you can do about it"..
life's unfair..get over it.."}

Arjun,
I am so confused between the good Arjun and the bad one, that friendship with you is at stake. :)
Of course, life's unfair, but, unlike football or baseball, there is no 4th quarter or 9th inning or even a time limit. The Muslim philosophy is to accomplish as much justice as you can in your own lifetime and then to pass the baton to the next generation and so on. So, my friend, I can guarantee you that Kashmir will be free - ONE DAY!

We Have Met the Enemy and the Enemy is Us! #27 Posted by Kulharee on September 24, 2008 8:38:46 am
{"Dear Salim, the additional paragraph changes everything. Why bring Kashmir into the equation of how corrupt our Army is? Don’t you think that they are the one who use Kashmir as an excuse for their continued looting and betrayal of our country? What are we going to do with Kashmir that we haven’t done with Baluchs, the Pathans, the FATAs, the Ahmadis, and so on? Kashmir should stay where it is, and may I suggest that you recite Taran-e-Hindi at the end of your article:"}

Dear Kulharee,
You know my perspective on the issue of partition. So, I have no problem with reciting the bulbul taran taran anytime. Sir Allama Iqbal was a man of many visions. This article, including the last paragrpah that was somehow dropped, is written from the perspective of a Pakistani patriot trying to correct the harm done by successive regimes of military rulers - well-meaning in the beginning, but quite demeaning in the ending.

Kashmir is a sore spot for all concerned. While I am against partition, I am also against the unfair resolution of Hyderabad/Junagadh and Kashmir problems. The Indian position seems to be "heads I win, tails you lose." The former two states went to India because they had Hindu majorities despite the wishes of their Muslim rulers. The latter state went to India because it had a Hindu ruler who signed the instrument despite his state having a Muslim majority.