US Conspiracy to Destablize Pakistan? Nobel Prize for Madani Sahib for his eloquent thoughts.

What he has said in 113 is very true. All mussalmanas should say uPar Allah neeche Madani.

300 Cheers for Madani Sahib hip hip Hurray. Tis a pity he is not Hindu then we could say Shree Shree 1007 Madani Sahib Shree Shree 1008 being god.

Sanatani

US Conspiracy to Destablize Pakistan? My friend, I like Sanatani because he is 'honest', not because he may be a Punjabi or anything else. I believe he is the only hindu on these boards who argues his enmity without insults and needless jokes upon his opponents as other Indians do. I respect that.


Oye Paincho oye kanjoor oye malang de tharak de padaish tu macho Puanjabi bhaichara phul reya hai tera maan de teri paan de teri teh di oye kuttya kanjara main tenu vand deya ga. Relax I am adressing the muhajir types. See I have such excellent double standards even if you make a mistake I shall abuse them not bro Punjabis

On another note so long as we can help it we would not like to split Pakistan, but if things get out of hand nuke it (honestly). I mean if we cannot have a friendly neighbour as Pakistan we are not intersted in friendly Sindhudesh and Jinnahpur. Also keep these types with you. We do NOT WANT THEM BACK UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

We would love Akhand Bharat if all of you rveretd back to the mother religion but not these types even if they do so.

Please remember May 12 should be avenged. The average Panju in Delhi is so kanjar that he cannot do the same against their cousins, I am hoping the average Panjoo in Lahore is not equally so Kanjar.

Regards
Sanatani

US Conspiracy to Destablize Pakistan? Zee Bhaiya,

Actuallu it should be Anuj or Tambi (for younger brother). Here is my do anna worth.
When a committed Hindutwavadi like me (who is not anti muslim but avowedly anti islamic) can have a lot of affection for you based on a common Punjabi ethnicity and can feel th apin for fellow Punjabis killed on May 12 despite Sheikhupura, Mianwali, Rawalpindi and Jhelum in 1947
then what is this talk of anti Pak hostility endengered by India. If we take a small example of the number of abducted Hindu/Sikh women returned by Pak in 47 as comapred to Muslim women returned by India would give yuou a very good idea of who was the aggressor.

Your idea of history is foundation stone of Pak in AD 711 till 1857 then a ceaseless struggle for eatablishing a Muslim state in India for 90 yrs culminating in Pak in 1947.

Grow up. We may have been decieved by that mutar fakeer Madardas Gandhu in 47 not anymore. The day you will face Narendrabhai in Delhi tum logon ko apne mard hone ki khush fehmi door ho jaige.

Written with love not hatred.

Regards
Sanatani

Your thr8 is Salim Chauhan and the Muhajirs not this descendant of Punabi Sharanarthis and believe me the fact that men of distant provinces of India in the South Potti Srimalu and Pittabhai Sitaramayya from Andhra, Morarji Bhai (Nishan-e-Pakistan)of Gujarat and BP Chahila of Asom were so vehement in their denounciation of anybody who would call us a refugee that a lot of sting was taken out of the holocaust of partition.

This Pyre Will Burn…! There is genuine puzzlement, anguisn and despair in the minds of Patriotic Pakis even parochial ones on the state of their nation/country. It is similar to what Patriotic and Parochial Indians have about the 4 M terorr/anti-nationalism that our eternal mother faces.

The difference is that the 4M terror does not touch the vast majority of Indians (on this board) so that they are immune/indifferent to it or so denationalised that the plight of the motherland does not touch them any more.

A dichotomy that I feel that is the diff between the Bharat and Paki conundrum is that maybe we may have something here. We are so ideologically zero that maybe a combination of our pacifism and hard headedness (as in Punjab could) deliver a solution where ideological rigidity as in Pak may not be able to.

Sanatani

Al-Andalusia … Decline of a Plural Culture Re: # 59
URstruly you say:

"Re: # 56

The answer is at least two pre-Islamic festivals are celebrated in Saudi Arabia. Both festivals are also the two major festivals in Muslim world at large.

The first festival is the Eid-al-adha, or festival or sacrifice that goes back to approximately 5000 years before Islam dating back to Ibraham (pbuh) who tried to sacrifice his own son Ishmael (pbuh). The comemoration of that event (with sacrifice) continued among Jews for thousands of years except that the conside Jacob (pbuh) as the son who was to be sacrificed.

The second major festival, eid -al-fitre, or festival of feast has also roots in pre-Islamic tradition. It was originally a sort of festival of harvest.

These two festivals are the major festivals celebrated through the Muslim world now.
"

The first festival is the Eid-al-adha, or festival or sacrifice that goes back to approximately 5000 years before Islam dating back to Ibraham (pbuh) who tried to sacrifice his own son Ishmael (pbuh). But the peadophile murderer said that Abraham was the first muslim so how come this was 5,000 yrs before Islam. Or maybe he was a liar also.

Pls enlighten us.

Regards
Sanatani

This Pyre Will Burn…! Abe HP what do you thnik. These fkrs were trouble makers in India and they are the same in Pak. They were traitors in India and same in Pak. They had a victim mentality in India so in Pak. I could go on.

The gas chambers are too good for them they should all be made slaves and their women laundies.

Scum of Bharat Mata the Urdu Muslais.

Sanatani

This Pyre Will Burn…! Re:Ranjit#288

Brilliant Analysis. Very true. In fact there was huge Pan Hindu (Hindu to include Sikh) feeling then.

When one meets Sindhis, Punjoos, Baloochi and NWFB Hindus and Sikhs in say Orissa or Andhra who went thru parition and then see their eyes misting up at the way they were helped by the locals in these areas make one to be feel proud to be Indian.

The flip side to this is that the new generation has no such feeling. While identifying with the satate they live in they do not feel that gratitude and say they helped us then we have helped them now (say by building a college).

As a descendant of refugees let me do Shashtang Pranam to my bretheren of the majority provinces that they never let us feel as refugees and treated us as brothers. Indeed Pittabhai Sitaramaya and Potti Srimalu (who died to create an Andhra state {Pakis note he fastd to death and did not kill anybody}) were the first to say our brtheren from what
is now Pakistan should under no circumstances be called refugees.

Regards
Sanatani

This Pyre Will Burn…! Let us see what observers of HIstory say.

Excerpted from Sardar GS Talib's The ML attacks on the HIndus and the Sikhs:

In Sind the Sikh population was not large, though the Hindus formed about 30% of-the population of the province. Out of the total non-Muslim population of 14 Lakhs, now1 only about 2 lakhs are left in Sind, the rest having come to India as refugees. The turning out of non-Muslims from Sind is very amply illustrative of the naked policy of turning out of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan, for no other reason whatever except that they were not Muslims. There was a policy of systematic terrorization of Hindus. Their business premises were looted, their womenfolk molested, and the avenues of normal respectable life entirely closed to them. Thus, through terror and intimidation, within the period of less than a year twelve lakhs out of the fourteen lakhs of Hindus in Sind have been forced to migrate to India. This has happened in spite of the fact that in the words of Shri Mansukhani, Secretary, Sind Congress Refugee Relief Committee, New Delhi, �not one single Muslim lost his life at the hands of Hindus in any act of retaliation or self-defence, not to talk of any act of aggression; but where from the first day of the birth of Pakistan, Hindus have been systematically done to death, by the knife, by the bullet. by the throwing out of the windows and doors of running trains. The object has been one and the goal clear. Pakistan has desired that it should be a theocratic state in the sense that all its citizens should be Muslims. This battle has been remorselessly waged on one long front of Western Pakistan.�

Hindus� houses were forcibly occupied, in Karachi and everywhere else, their property and land snatched from them, and no option left for them but to, seek a safer life free from unbearable indignities, in India.

Other portions from Shri Mansukhani�s article, quoted above. are: -

�Soon after August 15, 1947, was organised the ousting of Hindus and Sikhs from their residences and business premises, from their agricultural lands and industrial concerns.

�No Hindu�s house was his castle, he had to retreat at the point of the dagger and run away from the back-door. The Police of the Province and the War-time established Rent Control Department helped �legally� to throw out the members of the minority community.

Traces of Hinduism Erased

�It is not an uncommon phenomenon for prominent Hindus who are sticking on to the soil of Sind to be accosted while going about even on the main streets by Muslims and threateningly asked to either embrace Islam or go out of Pakistan.

�Hindu passengers can travel by railway only for short journeys and during day time and that too at great risk of their lives.

Our Shrines

�Our Gurmandir in Karachi became lately the residence of Sydney Cotton, the smuggler of arms to Nizam�s Hyderabad of yesterday. Most of our religious places, shrines, temples and Gurdwaras have been occupied by Muslims. The scriptures have been destroyed and the valuables have been pilfered and safely appropriated. Some of these places have also been turned into mosques where the Faithful congregate and read their Friday prayers to Allah. All educational institutions are similarly occupied and converted into the Schools and Colleges for Muslims.�

(�The Tribune�-January 16, 1949)

As for the Sikhs, their elimination and extermination began at about the same time as in West Punjab. By August all Sikhs in large towns had left Sind, and came over to the Punjab. It was not infrequent for trains carrying these Sikh refugees to be attacked on the way. On the 2nd of August, Sikhs were attacked in several villages in Nawabshah District.

On the 1st September, 1947 one train was stopped at Nawabshah, and the Sikh passengers attacked. Of these 15 were killed, and 17 injured.

The only Sikhs in Sind after August, were those in the interior-small tradesmen, pedlars and craftsmen. These began to be evacuated. Their condition was described in news agency reports as being extremely miserable and pitiable, as they could not ply any trade, and were in the last stage of destitution.

So much were the Muslims indoctrinated with the gospel of hate preached over years by the Muslim League, that on the 6th January, 1948, long after killing had stopped in East Punjab, a terrible massacre of evacuee Sikhs, awaiting embarkation for India occurred at Karachi. That this was no isolated incident of its kind in Pakistan is witnessed by the terrible Gujrat massacre of the 11th January, 1948, and the Parachinar massacre of the 23rd January, 1948. These three huge massacres of Sikhs and Hindus occurred in such quick succession at a time when all attacks on the Muslims in Indian territory had ceased three months before.

Certain details of this above mentioned Karachi massacre are of interest as revealing the conspiracy, cynicism and heartlessness of the Government of Pakistan, in the matter of getting Sikhs murdered.

As for the details of the massacre, the District Magistrate�s report from Karachi is reproduced below:

�Communal trouble started in Karachi today when 184 Sikhs arrived from Shikarpur by the morning train. From the station they went to a Gurdwara near Ratan Talao. A mob of nearly 8,000 gathered on the arrival of the Sikhs and surrounded the Gurdwara and set fire to it, and started stabbing and killing and a number of persons2 were killed,�

In the town of Karachi �there was looting in several quarters and there were four cases of arson.�3

There was looting on the next day as well, in the houses of Hindus. The situation was described in �an appeal�, issued by the Editors of several Karachi newspapers as �appalling� while admitting that some Muslims gave shelter to �the Hindu victims of mob frenzy.�

In the Gurdwara, where the massacre took place, women and children were also killed, as admitted by the Sind Premier in his statement.

The result of the disturbances of January 6 was described in �The Civil and Military Gazette� in these words:

�There was negligible loss of life suffered by the minority community (Hindus) compared to the looting that took place throughout the city�� The lives of members of the minority community (Hindus) were saved at the expense of their property.�

About 10,000 Hindus had to be kept in refugee camps, and Hindus had to be evacuated early to India, to save them from being murdered by Muslims. Looting went on uninterruptedly. So bold and open was this loot, that police and employees of the Chief Court of Sind openly participated in it. The Chief Court building was used as a dump for this loot. The Chief justice, an Englishman, his patience exhausted, had at last to intervene and stop the loot from being stacked at least in the Chief Court Building. This was the limit of the collapse of the law and good government in Pakistan.

Further facts in the situation are:

(1) About 800 Sikhs were killed in Karachi and not 184, as stated in the Pakistan communique.

(2) Not a word of regret was expressed by any responsible person in Pakistan over this tremendous loss of Sikh life. The Sind Premier made only the insulting statement that the sight of these Sikhs �provoked� the Muslims and only added the still more insulting directive that Sikhs be not brought to Karachi �in open carriages.� The Premier�s statement also makes it clear that no police precautions were taken for the protection of these Sikhs, whose lives were evidently so cheap that any one was at liberty to take them without the Pakistan Government moving its little finger.

The Governor-General of Pakistan, Mr. Jinnah, who sent a message of sympathy for the sufferers, did not so much as mention the Sikhs, who had been killed in overwhelming numbers. All that he said was that he had sympathy for the Hindus in their losses.

This was symptomatic of the attitude of the Pakistan Government, which did not regard Sikh life as worthy of any kind of protection and as meriting any sympathy.

The masses in Pakistan knew very well what their Government thought of any attack made on the Sikhs.

Jinnah�s statement was, furthermore an attempt to create a rift between Hindus and Sikhs, which the Muslims have been trying to, by posing to dislike the Hindus less than the Sikhs.

All these happenings occurred at a time when in India, Mahatma Gandhi undertook his last fast to get better treatment for the Indian Muslims. That was the response in Pakistan to the Mahatma�s gesture, and the faithfully carrying out of the Mahatma�s instructions by Hindus and Sikhs. Exactly when Delhi was being made safe for Muslims, in Karachi 800 Sikhs were massacred, and all Hindus looted and despoiled, had to move into refugee camps.

Footnotes:

1January, 1949.

2These were Sikhs exclusively.

3This is the Pakistan report of widespread looting of Hindu houses that went on unchecked in Karachi for a day or longer.

Fall of Dacca "Unfortunately for us, we have never had a Park Chung Hee, only Ayubs, Zias and Musharrafs."

Fuzair Mian Extremely well said. I once mentioned this to a group of Retired and Serving Senior Indian Millitary Officers. "The gr8st threat to India would be a Paki Park Chung Hee".

With the exception of 1 no one had heard of General Park. When 1 explained who was Park then they were so dismissive of Genral Park and said there is no comparison between Korea and India. (Of course there is no comparison India till 1965 was well ahead of Korea in all parameters and indices).

Then the 1 guy who had heard of and actually met Genral Park came and sat next to me and said you see these Chooths well Paki aint very different from us. Do you think these scum will produce a General Park. This person had spent time with the Indian Peace Keepers in Korea then gone back in the mid 60's to be unofficial Defence Attache and then post retirement went to Do his Phd from Korea in the late/end 70's. He had seen General Park (Col Park in the earliest avtar) have a look bordering on reverence towards the Indians (for the Korean war PK role) to one of undisguised contempt for their failure to move millions out of poverty and continue with rheotric most of it meaningless and empty.

Now comes a second part to this. A couple of years later at a Diwali party in Mumbai 1 met a Korean who was the boss of the host a distinguished retired naval commodore. This commodore was the elder brother of one of the Maj Generals who was loudest in cussing me for my remark on Gen Park and was present there. I toasted General Park to the Korean and while his wife frowned angrily the Korean broke into a broad smile and bowed. At this his wife got agitated and loudly cursed him in Korean, the Man also said something in Korean to his wife who immediately looked downcast and sheepish. The host asked his boss what happened and without knowing Korean I told him his wife cursed him for drinking a toast to General Park and I said the man replied without Gen Park we would be as welcome as a North Korean in a party if at all we got invited to 1.

The commodores btother the Maj Gen then closetted the Korean and asked Please tell me about this Gen Park.

Regards
Sanatani
P.S. And may Allah ensure there is never a Pakistani Park Chung Hee

Where is Ibn-Sina of the 21st Century? Abe Kameen,

Tu phir chaloo ho gaya. Last time you wer a proud Hindu now again:

"If anything, it was the Brahmin's iron clad control on Hindu society that led to its self destruction. Today, in India's urban areas, and also in fact in rural, the Brahmin is nothing more than a provider of services. The lower casts (not the Dalits yet, but the Shudars like Jats etc.)"

Why are people like you not greatful for the fact if it were not for the Brahmins Dharam would not have survived. (This is not to whitewash certain wrongs they have done) but the Brahmin is a caste much more sinned against than sinner than any such [definable] class in the world (Please let me know which Brahmin gave a Dharam adhyadesh againt Prathameshwar Guru Nanak for preaching equality) in fact within his Tarunyug Prathameshwar saw a Brahmin being sentenced to death for saying Hinduism and Islam are equal.

What of the Brahmins of Varanasi who gave the sacred knowledge to the 5 Pyaras when Dashameshwar sent them to Varanasi to gain a more insightful knowledge of Dharam and Gyan.

What of the fact that EVEN if we include the Vanvasi Hindus of Jan Nayak Birsa Munda even then % of the number of people hanged/killed by the Brits who were Brahmin was over 50% and excluding the Vanvasis 75%. Overall the Khalsa came next at little over 10% and the Vanvasis at a little under that(all figure appx +_ 2%[this figure HOWEVER MOST EXPLICITLY DOES NOT INCLUDES MADAR DAS GANDHIS BRAVE MOMINS THE MOPLAHS WHO DID A NICE LITTLE JIHAD FOR SWARAJ AGAINST THE HINDUS IN 1921])

And then again using these terms Pakis use like Shoodar? What will u use next Choorha for Dalits?

Sanatani

Comments on Ongoing Debate about ISI in the Afghan War Sir,

I salute you.

Regards
Sanatani

Search for Origins of Mahayana Buddhism This is the unique aspect of the Buddhist religious pantheon in "Northern Pakistan".

Are trying to be a joker. How is it Norther Pak when Pak did not exist at that time. Even if we acept Pak came into being when the first Sindhi accepted Islam then also what happened in "Northern Pakistan" (which was actually Northern India at that point of time) predates your land of the pure by anywhere from 1200-2000 years so it is hardly Pakistan which had this wonderful civilization but India.

At best you could say This is the unique aspect of the Buddhist religious pantheon of India which now resides in Northern Pakistan. (And repeat that ad nauseaum in all your posts).

Also on what basis are you Schizos now claiming affinity with Bhagwan Budh esp your other compatriots have writtens gems like Mecca not Mohenjodaro and that clown Aitzaz Hasan talking about Indic and Gangetic Civilisations.

The Budh started in Bihar (firmly Gangetic) and then reached Trans Oxus that takes care of the Indus as also the same being part of India.

You know where we lost:

1) Hindu society could not give an apporpriate theological response to Islam (in the fact it did not bother to refute Islam's claim of being a religion when it actually is a murderous and schizophrenic political philosophy).

2) It stopped caring for its sons and daughters who had been forced to convert and became more inward looking.

3) No Shankracharya donned the role of Pius the XI and no Prince became Charles Martel

Sanatani

Voice from Waziristan Coming back to what I was going to post.

Zee,

we have discussed this in the past. In our first interact you had said we are like this only and I had told you then change.

Many of you are fond of saying that there is a Surah in the koran that says (Though a former VHP colleague who is a Hafeez say it is untrue) "Who saves one life saves manking and who kills one kill entire mankind", in light of this what do you suppose you attitude should be.

If AQ is justified in striking America for its support to Israel then so is America hustified in retaliating against those it considers supporters of AQ.

Anyway the moot point to be considered is how can you cut your losses without invoking the wrath of either side (Waziris and America) to see that this deshat gardi is stopped in both your country and ours.

Sanatani

Voice from Waziristan Re: # 56

I was going to reply to your post but could not find it. 1st typed zee then zeem I recall reading the Pakistan urdu primer that Zeem se Zalim show s a Sikh. Are you Zalim or Sikh?

Sanatani

Neoliberalism and Madrassas: An Unholy Connection And there would be no Pakistan

Communists and the Making of Pakistan I was going thru the interacts and was shocked by what Mohar was writing except that by the time I replied 22 had come in place.

So let me say what Mohar can not/shall/not will not say. True Hindu ideologues had said this that Independence was a Hindu problem alone (1 of Savarkar's failings, Savarkar's biggest failing and though NOT the only failing). The Muslims also had to be fought no matter what the cost to get independence.

To prevent parition you had to recognise that the Muslims were bigger enemies than Brits and you have to fight a civil war with them to win this.

So in plain and simple terms we Hindus did not have the balls either to fight as in GODSE but not Savarkar not take it to a logical conclusion a la Ambedkar in exchange of population. We only had it in us to compromise and accept what happened to the Hindus in the Muslim majority areas as unfortunate. Indeed the so called Hindu nationalists were the Arya Samaji scum who themselves did not do anything but later badmouthed the Sardars who were the only Hindus to acquit themselves bravely in 1947. And who incidentally thanks to these same Arya Samists fx are no longer Hindu (though still Bhartiya)

We are now represented by pathetic creatures like these 3 interactors Laddu, Arjun and Jayp who mouth stoopid devoid of intellectuality crap but try and potray secularism. They are similar to chooths like Nehru, Patel, Bose and Kripanani and the assorted bunch of Kangressi bastaaards of 47 and the subsequent bunch of RSS/BJS/BJP bastards who claim to represent the Hindus since 47.

Our tragedy (th tragedy of the Hindus) much more than Pakistan is that we have never had a Hindu leader in India the closest who comes is Ambedkar and who later was an anti Hindu but yet too much of a Hindu to ally himself with the 4M enemies of teh Hindu Dharam (see sabha.info on what these 4 M's are).

I have at times felt it would have been better that my Great Grandfather had embraced Islam in 1947 and then at least 1 would have been a genuinely 1st class citizen of Pakistan than a second class one in India.

Note I feel it some times. But to cut an emotionally charged and intellectually devoid Nehruvian type half drunk rambling:

Gaand mein dum nahin hum kisi se kam nahin. This sums up the entire story of the Hindus.

So what if Pakistan came into being Gandhi won Oscars and Jinnah was portrayed by the Dracula guys.

My potty smells nicer than Paki potty and it is firmer also with nice texture, I can beat any Paki in Potty contest.

Fkkkkkkkk u most of my country men.

Sanatani

P.S I think the smallest minority in India is Hindus in my whole life, WHOLE FUKKING LIFE as a 15 year card carrying veteran of RSS/BJP/VHP 81-96 and a renegade since then I have not met more than 50 in my life and known well exactly 8. By Hindu i merely mean some one who may be atheist or agnostic but has a Hindu consciousness to be very simply described as there are some thing we call Indian that are totally Hindu e.g. Yoga