In the Line of Fire, A Review The changes that Lahore has seen are only in places where Nawaz Sharif and his brother used to pass through frequently. The stretch of road that links Mal Road to their Raiwind land. They spent all the tax money to build underpasses along the canal so that they can travel from Point A to B without stopping at a traffic signal! Even during Benazir`s time, the Mal Road area underwent a big change when the Islamic Conference was held in Pakistan. Millions were spent on diplomatic buildings that have no use today. What has Lahore gained from that really? It hasn`t improved the lives of the people. They are living in the same slums as they were before. Sewage, electricity, crime, and clean water are just as big an issue as in Karachi. The only areas with adequate water are those who have paid for a pumping facility to extract water from the ground. As far as the government is concerned, they are more worried about the curtains at the place where the next foreign diplomat is going to stay.
The politicians, no matter where they are from, have only improved the city so far as to improve their own lives or to give an illusion to the rest of the world how much the country has developed under them. The illusion that other Pakistanis have about Punjab being a province of gold is what the politicians in other areas are selling to their people in order to convince them that they should elect from their own people. Needless to say, like Benazir, the chances of them keeping their words will be next to zero. It is precisely that illusion which can break sindh and punjab apart and neither people will gain anything from it except become more vulnerable to the outside world.

In the Line of Fire, A Review Re: #8 by khurram

``The `educated and liberal middle class of Pakistan` not having a democratic majority of their own decide to support a dictator to implement their agenda.``

...as opposed to what?? Which class are you from? The uneducated and chained one?? You`re not a mullah are you??

And what`s the agenda of this class?? To have a stable government that is capable of surviving more than 3 years and complete the 5 year term?? Of seeing the economy recover from the lows of Nawaz Sharif`s times (after the nuclear tests, though I am in no way condemning those as it was necessary). To have someone capable of taking some steps to check the growing talibanisation of our western provinces??

In the Line of Fire, A Review Re: Zeena #7 and hasanmahmood #9

Even though I agree with hasanmahmood`s points, I wouldn`t put it in those words. Infact I was surprised to read him blaming Punjabis for everything as if all the politicians and rulers of Pakistan, through `democratic` or military means, were from Punjab! Benazair and her father, Bhutto, were not from Punjab. And neither her or her dad did anything for the country or their own city (except break it into two). Even Musharraf grew up in Karachi and is not a Punjabi...ever think about that??
I would suggest hasanmahmood to go to Faisalabad, the next important city in Punjab after Lahore and Isalamabad and he will see that it`s in no different state than Karachi. Even in Lahore, it is usually the areas where they want foreign diplomats to go to that are well developed (like when King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia came, they worked on those parts of Lahore where they took him through. The rest stayed the same). Otherwise it`s no different.

``Now that you have this freedom you take advantage of it by spewing all this hate and ignorance on this website`` - do I sense hypocrisy there hasanmahmood??

Coming to the discussion about dictators, then I am really glad that Nawaz Sharif or Benazir were nowhere near the prime minister`s seat in Pakistan! Can you imagine what would have happened. Nawaz Sharif, drunk with his own power, might have dismissed his Ch of Army and told Bush to appoint an american general instead. And Benazir would have moved to washington and appointed zardari as the Chief with a full license to treat the country as if it came in her dowry. I know that`s an exageration, but in essence that is how they treated Pakistan in the past and that is how they would have treated it in todays times.
The fact of the matter is Zeena, that Pakistanis do not deserve democracy!! They are so acutely divided into Punjabis, Sindhis, Baluchis and Pathans that they will simply vote for someone based on where they come from and not what they are capable of!! And if their chosen one gets elected, they just sit back thinking that he/she will wave a magic wand and their city will become another beverly hills. It never happens! The politicians know that and they make promises (and nothing more) to their own people in order to win. The common folks in Pakistan don`t really know what they want from their rulers...they don`t know who will be the best for them. Otherwise Nawaz Sharif or Benazir could never have been elected more than once, which they did, and most of the votes came from rural areas anyways. Do those people really know which candidate is most adept at improving the economy, reducing corruption and poverty and running the country?
I am not saying that dictators are good people. What I am saying is that Musharraf seems to be one of the better ones (much better than Zia) and so far, given his task and the sensitive issue of `war on terror`, no democratically elected prime minister could have done better.

India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute To bjkumar #287,

contrary to how you`ve put it, I am not insulting my own religion when you quoted the following from my previous post

[Muslims are intolerant, Pakistanis are a bunch of lunatics and that we are a bunch of selfish arrogant egotistical morons.]

You did not read what I had said before, or at least did not include it in the quote, but I said that people like the characters in question would make a neutral, or an outside person, think that this is what we are.

And no, I won`t recommend changing the name of Pakistan. I can only dream of the day when outsiders will actually feel our people justify the tag but as long as there are people like hamidm who obviously don`t give a toss about other people`s lives (as long as it`s not theirs) we are going to have that image. Sad fact in life...very sad. But the name should be there so that other people with some level of compassion and intellect left in them would know what we should be trying to achieve. Even a small change in heart or a movement can create a huge force that only cowards refuse to acknowledge. you only have to look at history from any part of the world and you will see that it`s not that impossible.

India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute It is actually quite sad when I see Pakistanis who feel they have the right to talk about Kashmir and represent Pakistan when they don`t even understand what their religion expects of them. They call themselves `Men`. I`m not a romantic and don`t think that the actual underlying reason for the formation of Pakistan was the Hindu/Islamic divide (though our corrupt politicians do insist that was the reason and not their greed) I still believe that the concept was sound. If it wasn`t for our religious differences, then really how do you justify the existence of the border. As I have said in my very first post (#198), the border is there to give the Hindu Muslim communities a breathing space and look at each other from an arm`s length rather than getting into each others face. Can you imagine the whole of Pakistan being one big issue like Kashmir is today?

People like hamidm2 and tahmed obviously can`t see that. They actually stand to prove to the other religions that Muslims are intolerant, Pakistanis are a bunch of lunatics and that we are a bunch of selfish arrogant egotistical morons. Believe me when I say this, there are people in Pakistan who are concerned about the Kashmiris and don`t look at Kashmir as a vacation spot or a piece of land.

As for tahmed trying to be the judge and jury on my argument with hamidm2, it was hamidm2 who misinterpreted my post. The only place where I mentioned hamidm2 in #263 was as an example of the sort of people who get agitated if we, as Muslims, back down and make it an issue with their ego (which clearly fits hamidm2 very well). I never told him to go and adopt a Kashmiri. I was just telling the pakistanis in general reading this forum that the day we become that tolerant to our own Muslim brothers, this problem can solve itself.

We can`t be perfect but perfection must be strived for in order to achieve excellence. I know being that tolerant is clearly dreaming too much, but moving in that direction will go a long way towards improving the state of our country. We clearly can`t allow this to go on too long as both Paksitan and Kashmir are under the risk of being perished. And the statement about earning brownie points was more of a question: what the hell are you numb nuts really trying to achieve in this forum, because your insulting tirades are absolutely useless and you`re digressing from the actual issue here. Have we heard one sound reasoning from you guys, have we heard one suggestion about which direction the two countries should take, anything???? What have you guys achieved so far from this forum other than convincing the rest of the world that what they think about the Muslims and Pakistanis was actually right all along!

India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute Hamidm2: well it surprises me that you feel I have dragged religion into it. I am trying to separate the position of Islam from the position of those very fools who hijacked the movement as you said. What concerns me is how my religion gets tainted everytime a bomb explodes anywhere in the world (even if it is by a Muslim or not). As for your personal beliefs and ambitions about Kashmir, I would suggest you go to Kashmir now and drown yourself in the Dal Lake for all I care. You don`t need to take over the land, unless your ego tells you that`s the way to go about it. I would suggest the Hindus to help him to whatever extent they possibly can as it would be the first cooperative act that will go a long way to achieving peace. I am glad you have finally shown your true colours to the world to see. Signing out.

India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute I would be more than happy to pay a higher tax in Pakistan if the government can guarrantee the money doesn`t go into their own pockets and goes into giving the kashmiris a home in Pakistan. Again the corruption is the biggest hindrance in our countries and one we must fight by concentrating within ourselves.

To BJKUMAR: I would appreciate it if you stop cracking jokes in the middle of what I`m saying as you`re just distracting any emotional Pakistani away from the discussion. Yes there are too many on both sides unfortunately.

India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute And before someone accuses me of suggesting that we leave our Muslims brothers and sisters to be `raped`, then no, that is not what I am suggesting. Infact if it was upto me, I would have told India to keep Kashmir and allow the Mulims who wish to move to Pakistan a safe passage to Lahore. That would have tested the Mullahs and politicians resolve as the issue on Kashmir is not an issue on the people, but the land! Don`t you think if they were that concerned about the the Muslim brothers and sisters, then at least one smart ass would have come up with that! Where does it say in Islam that one must fight for the land! Do you think the Hindus would care if the Kashmiri Muslims just got up and left for Pakistan! Before the Pakistanis start beating their chests, consider whether you are willing to accommodate a Kashmiri in your home like the Insar people accommodated the Muhajars during the Prophet`s (PBUH) time. Is our government willing to carry the extra burden of more people in the country? Whose rights and for whose benefit are they fighting, are we fighting for anyways? Are we even ready to be the true Muslims that Islam teaches us to be? The clock is ticking...and people are dying as we think...

India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute What a great intellectual discussion this forum has turned out to be (sarcasm included). I have read more ways of insulting other religions and nations in this discussion than what should be done about the Kashmir issue. I just hope that all of you are 50-60 yr olds who don’t have long to live because a future like you guys is really not what our countries need!

I have been especially disappointed in the Muslims/Pakistanis on this forum. Being one myself, I feel that I should share with you guys what I think is the real position of Islam on this whole issue, not what some of you self-proclaimed knights of Islam, with the mission of insulting other religions, think is the correct way. You’ve really done your religion proud (NOT!) Now please read this with an open mind:

Islam is a complete religion and has answers to all the issues that one will ever face in life. All you have to do is study it. I am not a scholar (far from it), but I have been lucky enough in my life to have stumbled upon parts of the Quraan for me to share with you on this issue. Those of us who have read about the life of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) would have heard about the Sulah Hudaibiyah (agreement at the plains of Hudaibiyah outside Makkah) in which he compromised with the Kaafirs of Makkah and allowed them to keep the Muslims living in Makkah and even promised to return the Muslims who defect to Madinah back to Makkah. Now there were people, very much like ‘hamidm’ on this forum, who were distraught at this and in reply, Allah revealed the Surah Al Fath (‘Victory’, Chapter 48) in which he promised the Muslims that this agreement is really a victory. I would suggest whoever is interested to read this Surah. Within a year the Kaafirs of Makkah brought about their own downfall through their own excessive indulgences while the Muslims were able to concentrate on improving their own society. Of course I don’t believe (and don’t wish) this will happen to India as I don’t care what they get upto. I am more concerned about the state of my own country!

Don’t you think we have enough problems in our own backyard. The corruption, the abuse to women, the illiteracy, the rich and alcohol addicted elitists and their palaces while the poor are getting pushed deeper into the mud….do we really justify the tag of being an Islamic Republic? We have to compromise on Kashmir and concentrate on education, tolerance between the Sunnis and Shias, developing the western provinces (NWFP and Baluchistan) as it is their right and bringing some order over there (not by force mind you but dialogue and education). We have to do this as this is the only way we can survive. If you don’t trust me then trust God and the Quraan. It is right there in front of you. A true Islamic nation has the capacity to shine and people shouldn’t be afraid of it. Unfortunately nowadays, Muslims have become synonymous with terrorism!

And a parting advise to the insulting lot, the Muslims/Pakistanis who think they are doing a great act of Sawab and earning brownie points with Allah (SWT) by insulting the Hindus. Let me remind you that the Prophet (PBUH) has said that if you insult someone’s parent and they insult yours, then you’ve actually insulted your own parents. On a similar context by insulting other religions/nations you’ve just ended up insulting Islam when the other party reciprocated. Think about it!! It’s this ability that sets us apart from the animals, so don’t lose it!

India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute To bjkumar. All you have proved in your worthless replies is your ability to swear and insult people. You think you can solve all the problems with your `witty` little remarks and `sense of humour` with an added whiff of a mother-in-law joke. You can`t even handle a class full of turtles as they will just walk away from you after growing tired of your endless tirade.
Here`s a common argument among the Indian folks: there was no need for a partition and the border was absolutely unnecessary (hence Jinnah is a villain). If you ask me, I feel a lot better that there is a border between the extremist elements in Pakistan AND India (yes, contrary to bjkumar`s assertions, there are extremist elements among the Hindus as well in India). Now imagine the problem in Kashmir, but only much bigger (think the size of Pakistan). That`s what the border has given us, a breathing space, for the two people/nations to separate and look at each other at an arm`s length and then hopefully one day learn to compromise.