God is a Metaphor Re: # 65

Khurram, also it seems that the artcile you have quoted is from and Islamic website probably trying to justify this heinous practice. What I am quoting is actual facts on the incidence of birth defects. Anecdotally though I personally know a number of Pakistani families in Canada whose children have learning disabilities, development delays etc... whose parents are first cousins from a long line of intermarriages. These children are NOT counted at birth! I can also forward you educational testing from Britain that when controlled for socioeconomic status and parental education Pakistani children do the worst academically among other South Asians. I really want to understand how this can persist when it is universally accepted that most parents want the best for their child. Why is the the medical community of Pakistani doctors not more vocal about this? Although I do know several who are personally very opposed to this trend.

God is a Metaphor Re: # 65

Khurram I am afraid you are confusing two very different situations. Incidental first cousin marriage is not disastrous and the risk of genetic abnormality is minimally increased. What I am talking about is completely different. It is the preponderance of first cousin marriages over generations. The risk here is phenomenally higher for genetic disease. Pakistani`s acount for 3.4% of live births but 30% of recessive genetic disorders in Great Britain. As a physician it has baffled and disturbed me how even educated Muslims are not alarmed by this trend. Do you honestly think such a tendency has not had negative impact on intellectual faculties.This has not been adequately researched. Is it not possible that the poor academic performance of Pakistani students is affected by this? The article you quote is about the ``occasional`` intermarraige but likewise there a numerous jokes about the limited faculties of inbred people in the south of the US. Saudi Arabia is the most telling example. It has one the highest rate of birth defects in the world. The gov`t is not going to go on a public health campaign anytime soon. It is distressing for me as a physician that innocent children pay the ultimate price for this misguided mentality. Here is an article in the BBC:

risks of cousin marriage

By Justin Rowlatt
BBC Newsnight


Many people would find the idea of marrying a first cousin shocking, but such marriages are not unusual in some British communities.

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It is estimated that at least 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins and the tradition is also common among some other South Asian communities and in some Middle Eastern countries.

But there is a problem: marrying someone who is themselves a close family member carries a risk for children - a risk that lies within the code of life; within our genes.

Communities that practice cousin marriage experience higher levels of some very rare but very serious illnesses - illnesses known as recessive genetic disorders.

Open debate

Now, one Labour MP is calling for an end to the practice. ``We have to stop this tradition of first cousin marriages,`` Keighley MP Ann Cryer tells Newsnight.

Family events are really nice because my in-laws and his are related

Neila Butt
Mrs Cryer believes an open debate on the subject is needed because - despite the risks - cousin marriage remains very popular.

Mrs Cryer`s constituency is in the Bradford area, where the rates of cousin marriage are well above the national average. It is estimated that three out of four marriages within Bradford`s Pakistani community are between first cousins.

The practice remains so popular because the community believes there are real benefits to marrying in the family. Many British Pakistanis celebrate cousin marriage because it is thought to generate more stable relationships.

Strong unions

Such unions are seen as strong, building as they do on already tight family networks.


``You have an understanding,`` explains Neila Butt, who married her first cousin, Farooq, nine years ago.

``Family events are really nice because my in-laws and his are related,`` she says.

``You have the same family history and when you talk about the old times either here or in Pakistan you know who you are talking about. It`s just a nicer emotional feel.``

But the statistics for recessive genetic illness in cousin marriages make sobering reading.

British Pakistanis are 13 times more likely to have children with genetic disorders than the general population - they account for just over 3% of all births but have just under a third of all British children with such illnesses.

Indeed, Birmingham Primary Care Trust estimates that one in ten of all children born to first cousins in the city either dies in infancy or goes on to develop serious disability as a result of a recessive genetic disorder.

Variant genes

Recessive genetic disorders are caused by variant genes. There are hundreds of different recessive genetic disorders, many associated with severe disability and sometimes early death, and each caused by a different variant gene.

My skin is really fragile, and can blister very easily with a slight knock or tear

Myra Ali
We all have two copies of every gene. If you inherit one variant gene you will not fall ill.

If, however, a child inherits a copy of the same variant gene from each of its parents it will develop one of these illnesses.

The variant genes that cause genetic illness tend to be very rare. In the general population the likelihood of a couple having the same variant gene is a hundred to one.

In cousin marriages, if one partner has a variant gene the risk that the other has it too is far higher - more like one in eight.

Myra Ali has a very rare recessive genetic condition, known as Epidermolisis Bulosa.

Her parents were first cousins. So were her grandparents.

``My skin is really fragile, and can blister very easily with a slight knock or tear,`` she says.

Myra has strong views about the practice of cousin marriage as a result. ``I`m against it, because there`s a high risk of illness occurring``, she says.

Denial

We all have to get involved in persuading people to adopt a different lifestyle

Ann Cryer MP
According to Ann Cryer MP, whose Keighley constituency has a large Pakistani population, much of the Pakistani community is in denial about the problem.

She tells Newsnight that she believes it is time for an open debate on the subject: ``As we address problems of smoking, drinking, obesity, we say it`s a public health issue, and therefore we all have to get involved with it in persuading people to adopt a different lifestyle``, she says.

``I think the same should be applied to this problem in the Asian community. They must adopt a different lifestyle. They must look outside the family for husbands and wives for their young people.``

God is a Metaphor Re: # 59

Too funny comeing form a guy who believes Allah approves of sex with multiple virgins in hte afterlife and a prophet who promises young boys as beautiful as pearls...

It never ceases to amaze me of how oblivious people like you are to normal family values.

God is a Metaphor Re: # 57

So you would kick their butts huh? Most people would lynch a fiftysomething guy having sex or screwing a nine year old but it sounds good to you.

What don`t you shut up with your hypocritical moralizing. Most socieites thinks a family is ONE man and ONE woman not one man and an assortment of women he sleeps with. Yuck! But it is totally normal to you.

God is a Metaphor Re: # 56

To most people yes. But I am certain you have done worse. Just a hunch. First to always cast stones, judge others etc...

Besides to you screwing your sister should be no big deal to you. You never answered my post about first cousin marriages across generations that results in sibling like marraiges. Alot of these first cousins grow up like brother and sister and are genetically related like siblings. Yet because is is sanctioned in Islam it is okay. Make a family tree of it and show it to most people. They will want tp throw up. Besides isn`t it also okay for you to marry your niece? Most people/cultures globally would find that abhorrent but again coz its santioned by Islam it is okay for you. What`s you next beef? Lemme guess Pedophilia? Please we don`t have to go there do we...

God is a Metaphor
Dr Sohail,

Zeemax would probably suggest appropriate punishment would be stoning of them. He is a good Muslim and afterwords will enjoy deflowering his 72 virgins.


Dear Zeemax,

Just a reminder raping a kafir or slave girl is A-okay!

God is a Metaphor Re: # 44

Dr. Sohail is a learned man who makes valuable contributions to his community. He does not have time to interact with dimbulbs who have too much time on his hands and and is just biding his time on Earth till he goes to Jannat and frolicks with 72 virgins. In the meantime he must rail against sexual improrieties.

God is a Metaphor Re: # 17

Actually first cousins who are raised together like brother and sister and are themselves progeny of first cousin marriages are just as incestous to most people in the world and extremely distrubing. Just because YOU are ok with it and your culture/religion sanctions it doesn`t mean its is healthy or rational or desirable for societies to choose marraige partners solely from their immediate family members.

God is a Metaphor Re: # 6

Zeemaz your arguement is patently absurd. As a physician I can assure you that the societies where incestous marital bonds are most rampant and the genetic consequences most deleterious are in Islamic societies. Here is a link on consanguinity:

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/003130.html

The preponderance of first cousin marriages in the Muslim world is astonishing. I know you might think this is vastly different from this brother and sister but you fail to understand the these first cousins are often themselves the product of first cousin marriages. It doesn`t take a scientific genius to figure out that after a 2-3 generations it is akin to marrying your brother or sister which is precisely what happens in many Muslims societies. The phenomenally higher rate of recessive inherited disorders among such communities is well documented. Recently the British Health Minister appealed to the Pakistani community in England who comprise 3.4% of all births but ~30% of all inherited recessive disorders to basically stop marrying their relatives. Saudi Arabia is a goldmine for pathologists for the same reason. What has not been well studied is the effect of all this inbreeding on intelligence but I can assure you it has been speculated although not publicly argued the the often poorer academic performance of Muslim communities compared to other Asian and Europeans might be attributed to this. In spite of ample evidence showcasing the genetic problems associated with consaguinous marriages there is little public advocacy for reform in Muslim communities. Partly this stems from the fact that it is sanctioned in the Quran. I wonder if you are equally disturbed by this phenomena which is real, prevalent and not one anecdotal case from Germany. What you featured is not the ``norm`` what I am describing is.

Girls Gone Wild Re: # 345

Christopher Hitchens:

On the Koran: ``I simply laugh when I read the Koran, with its endless prohibitions on sex and its corrupt promise of infinite debauchery in the life to come.``

I feel the same with the likes of everyone going haywire with Aunty Shamim and the likes.

Girls Gone Wild Re: # 117

Finally! This is a universal principle for all civilised societies to adhere to. Just what I was trying to articulate.

Zeena, their wearing a burqa is irrelevant. Yeah is they took to task a major powerful zamindar who exploited and abused scores of poor innocent people it would make it a different scenario.

Girls Gone Wild How can anyone defend this kind of vigilantism. Some of the rationals posted are eerily similar to Hindutva goons reactionary ``justice`` post Godhra train ride. I mean of course they had to teach the malefactors a lesson! What kind of sick justice was meted out.

If reform movement in Pakistan takes a unified non-violent approach outcome will be better. Long term for society and economy.

Girls Gone Wild R these people for real? Zeena prostitution exists everyhwere and societies that are so called more conservative also have worse cases of sexual abuse and exploitation typically along class lines. Gulf states are prime examples, do you know how many servants, nannies get raped?

Also I am absolutley positive that some of the self-righteous twits on this site have themselves indulged in these behaviors but they are the type to blame the ``Aunty Shamims`` of this world.

Girls Gone Wild Re: # 61

How do you KNOW that aunty Shamim was involved in prostitution? How would you like it if someone accused you of hiring prostitutes (which is a very likely scenario) and then beating you up for it.

I think you are secretly into S&M and you get turned on by watching all those hordes of girls brandishing their laathis...they are probably so sexually frustrated that even you might turn them on. Hehehe...

Pakistans Permanent Revolution Re: # 245

Uh yeah you just proved my point. Yvonne Ridley is a nut, she support Zarhqawi even after his own family disowned him! My Shia colleague has lost her niece, cousin`s family including a two year old because of that creep. Her criticism of Israel and Zionism is dead on but jeez she was even fired from Al-Jazeera. By her own admission she has been married to muslims in the past but didn`t know about Islam... Huh?

Pakistans Permanent Revolution Re: # 188

I meant that one of the participants in the London bombing was a converts, as is the Hicks fellow from Australia.

How come you never see intelligent, well adjusted, non-criminals from educated happy families converting to Islam. But typically the dredges, flunkies, violent etc... ones who ``get`` Islam?

You crack me up. Your contempt for others mimics Arabs contempt for you but you would lick their boots and be their willing peon anyday as would most Pakistanis.