Of Medical Students, Passports and Religous Tolerance Re: # 138

The thrust of several posters and now you is that Ahmedis are somehow uniquely evil and thus their persecution is justified. Islam is at war with every single faith in the world it is in proximacy with, be it Bahais suffering a very similar fate as Ahmedis, African animists enslaved by Jihadi raiders, Hindus sold as slaves in the 10's of millions, Christians wiped out from the Middle East, Jews persecuted in pogroms one after another and driven out of the Middle East, Inter-sectarian wars all over the place......

But Muslim propagandist Eklavya would have 'Hindus' (as if they are the only ones expressing an issue with the fate of Ahmedis) read up and apparently learn about the unique evil of Mirzais whereupon they would then approvingly look on as inquisition, witch hunt, pogroms and destruction of this group goes on.......

Pakistan’s Prevailing Political And Economic Mess http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=1.0.2344863234

Pakistan: Tension grips town over Koran burning


Hyderabad, 17 July (AKI/DAWN) - Tension gripped a small town in Pakistan, after rumours that a Hindu child had burnt a copy of the Muslim holy book, the Koran.

The incident took place in a remote mountainous area between Hyderabad and Karachi.

Following the incident, people reportedly gathered in the town of Thano Ahmed Khan to pressure police to take action against the child.

Later it was revealed that the child, who works in a grocery store, had mistakenly given a buyer some goods wrapped in a page from a textbook which had a Koranic verse on it.

According to reports, the child was taken to a guesthouse, stripped and beaten up. Another report, denied by police, said that the boy was paraded naked in the area.

The boy's father, Maharaj Jaman Das, who holds an important religious position in the community, offered an unconditional apology to the protesters and said his son did not know what was written on the paper.

Police tried to verify the incident but no one in Thano Ahmed Khan could produce the paper which contained the Koranic verse.

Police in Thano Bula Khan told the Pakistani daily, Dawn, that no charges had been laid as no one had given any evidence that an act of blasphemy had occurred.

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I guess this is a negative for the economy?

Of Medical Students, Passports and Religous Tolerance #134 Nice sentiments Sattar.

You wrote:
Communities have and probably will continue to differ in interpreting Islam. The issue now is how to handle these differences. If your main alternative is persecution and use of force, then you’ve already lost the cause, I am afraid.

They may have lost morally but in the real world this is the way Islam owes the majority of its success to. Mohammad could only muster a few hundred mostly indigent followers, mostly attracted by the free Biriyanis. After violence, raiding caravans, jihad, letters of submit or else and gruesome murders by his followers like Khalid Ibn Walid who in one case killed a man and then enjoyed his nuptials (had sex with) with his wife in the mans blood.
"I have been made victorious with terror" claimed the Prophet and that was the truth of the matter.
There are many hadiths with Mohd saying to kill heretics and appealing to lofty sentiments and 'hoping your Islam teaches better' is not something that will stop the persecution of Ahmedis.

Of Medical Students, Passports and Religous Tolerance I don't believe anyone claiming divine inspiration for ethnic cleansing is being divinely inspired.

You basically are accepting my points.

The point is you believe you are right, and following divine will, so whatever you do like persecuting heretics is ok because you are right and others wrong.

The doctrine of pre-emptive wars is widely open to abuse and that is why Iraq faced such opposition being largely based on that principle which is a very shaky one.

I saw a Ahmedi video which quotes a Zakir Naik video where he responds to a questioner asking why there is no freedom to preach non-Islamic faiths in Islamic countries. Zakir Naik responds that because Muslims "know" Islam is true whereas non-Muslims merely believe their religions to be true it is justified as fake teachings cannot be allowed to be taught.

The Ahmedi commentator comments that by the same logic non-Muslims should ban Muslims from preaching and practising their religion.

What is good for you should be good for me too. But in Islamic logic of course you are so cock-sure about being right you can just go ahead and deny others rights you demand for yourselves. You don't follow the first principle of humanity that of considering what is good for me should be good for others too.

You use all kinds of Jamaati wipped up hatred ideas about how others are plotting against you, would do the same etc but the basic program of wiping out infidelity using all types of brutal tactics continues and will continue as long as you believe as you do without the slightest humility that your belief could perhaps perhaps be 'wrong'.

You personally if you have the slightest bit of honesty should have to admit that there is the tiniest possibility that your religion is not the result of pure unadulterated revelation from God and that therefore you should be wary of actions that if your religion wasn't correct would classify as criminal.......

Of Medical Students, Passports and Religous Tolerance Again Krbatti uses his Jamaati logic 101 which says we are persecuting Ahmedis because that is what they "would" do to us if they were in the majority.

This is Islamic logic. We are persecuting because of 'imagined' persecution we would face, so ergo, our persecution is justifiable because we imagine others might do it to us. Actually you are persecuting because that is what your religion teaches. Mohammad destroyed a rival mosque and used a 'revelation' he had that the rivals were planning to assassinate him. He ethnically cleansed Jews based on 'revelations from Angels' that they were secretly planning to kill him by dropping a stone on him. So Islamic logic means you imagine terrible motives in your rivals, even those you have a pact with, and based on those imaginations you persecute them, exile them or commit genocide on them. This is Islam as practiced by the prophet of Islam and his followers throughout history.

The Krbatti's, Tahirs, Pakistan Govt lawmakers are only following this logic to its natural conclusion.
They have surrendered fully to Islam (submitted)and will commit crimes against humanity under its spell.....

Of Medical Students, Passports and Religous Tolerance A few points re: this article.

1) The author asks the logical question of who is he to swear about the falseness of a prophet. Obviously someone claiming prophethood could theoretically be genuine, even Mohammad himself. But the author makes the logical point that someone cannot know this and to swear as to such is silly. Yes, also the same logic can equally be applied to the Kalima. To swear to the truth of something you cannot know to be true is to be dishonest and anyone swearing the Kalima is swearing on something they do not know to be factual. They first accept Islam to be true and Mohd to be the final messenger and then they are stuck in the loop unable to get out. This is the crude methodology of a brain-controlling cult.

2) If you accept Islam to be true then all of the intolerance that Islam teaches has to be accepted too because you are not one to challenge the "word of Allah" being a mere human being. Even trying to interpret won't work because the intolerance of Islam for non-Islam is unescapable for someone who reads it literally.

With this being said 'moderates' like Tahmed should make the big step of accepting humanity and dumping Islam.

The Krbhatti's, Zeemaxes, Tahirs, Urstruly's, Masadi's etc have no humanity left to speak of but those trying to navigate the balancing act between their consciences and innate humanity and Islam need to see Islam for what it is, an evil fraud.
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That's one point from this article. Another is that this illustrates the current 'unique' evil Islam is propagating in this regard. Whereas other religions and countries have long abandoned such treatment of heretical beliefs, right now as we speak Pakistan is including such a declaration on it's offical documents which so contradict religious tolerance.

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Another point is that bigots like Tahir and Zeemax have been taught that this persecution of Ahmediyyas is ok because anyway Ahmedis believe themselves to be true Muslims and right in their beliefs and other Muslims to be following the wrong path, and some one or two Ahmedis may have even stated such once or twice in the course of history.

This is so foolish. Every believer believes himself to be right and others wrong and if questioned intimately will sometimes admit such.

To equate this with putting inquisitional statements on compulsory Government documents shows the perversions that Jamaati thought has indoctrinated people like Tahir and Zeemax et al.

A Fatal Act-Bad News for India Pakistan Relations HP tries whitewashing the Pakistani ISI in this thread from involvement in this blast and to muddy the waters.

Speaking of statements for credulous fools consumption here is one from Hekmatyar's group:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20087\16\story_16-7-200 8_pg7_13

Hekmatyar’s group blames NA for Indian embassy attack

PESHAWAR: The Hizb-e-Islami Afghanistan (HIA) of Afghanistan’s former premier Gulbuddin Hekmatyar has blamed the Northern Alliance (NA) for the suicide attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul last week. In a statement issued on Tuesday, the HIA said the alliance backed such terrorist attacks due to its animosity towards Pakistan. The statement dismissed Afghan President Hamid Karzai’s allegations that Pakistan was behind the attack on the Indian embassy. Certain leaders holding positions in Karzai’s cabinet belonged to the NA, the statement said, adding that those leaders were persecuting their own countrymen. “Those [NA] people want to create differences between India and Pakistan with such tactics,” said the HIA statement issued in Pushto. Leaders of the alliance had killed Afghans along with the Red Army in past, it said, and now they are cohorts of the Americans. The HIA condemned the killing of innocent people in attacks by warring groups, and directed its “mujahideen” to avoid targeting civilians. Hekmatyar is the founder of the , and held the office of from 1993 to 1994 and again in 1996-97. staff report

The Non-Existent Tourist’s Guide To Pakistan Mast article. Thanks to the author for an amusing read.

Here is a video that I found interesting about slavery and misogyny in Pakistan:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BJtOCs5crns
Nightmare Behind the Veil - Pakistan

The Lame Duck Government "Some local people said this operation is just an eyewash....."

http://www.dawn.com/2008/06/30/top1.htm

Troops push on with Bara offensive : ‘Militants had escaped to Tirah Valley before operation began’



By Ibrahim Shinwari

LANDI KOTAL, June 29: Security forces on Sunday pushed on with their offensive against militants and destroyed several hideouts and an FM radio station in the Bara tehsil of the Khyber tribal region.

However, there are indications that the militants had moved out of the area before the offensive was launched.

Paramilitary forces are reported to have destroyed four hideouts of Lashkar-i-Islam and Ansarul Islam on Sunday without encountering any resistance.

Prime Minister’s Adviser on Interior Rahman Malik, who attended briefings on the law and order situation at the Governor’s House and the Frontier Corps headquarters at the Bala Hisar Fort, told journalists that the area was under the control of the government and its writ had been established.

Rejecting reports that the area had been handed over to the army, he said the operation was being carried out by civilian law-enforcement agencies. He claimed that several torture cells had been found in Bara. The entire Bara sub-division was calm but tense with all markets and educational institutions remaining closed. The area has been under curfew since Saturday.

When this correspondent visited Bara and adjoining areas, local people said that Mangal Bagh, who is spearheading the campaign against the government, had already moved to the remote Tirah Valley.

Flags of Lashkar-i-Islam were seen flying above houses and school buildings in Bara. Some local people said that the operation was just an eyewash and Mangal Bagh was being supported by the administration.

According to them, Mangal Bagh had used radio broadcasts to order his supporters not to attack security forces or hinder their movement. “He asked his supporters to let them (troops) go wherever they wanted,” a man told this correspondent.

Khan Mohammad, who was guarding one of the destroyed Lashkar-i-Islam’s centre in Bara, said: “The Amir knew about the operation and had asked his supporters to move out of the area and take shelter in the Tirah Valley before it started.”

He said: “People will do as they are told and that is why there is no resistance.”

Officials said that the operation had been extended to Arjali Nadi, west of the Bara bazaar on Sunday morning where security forces blew up a centre vacated by the Ansarul Islam. The Arjali Nadi centre was occupied by the Mehsood Scouts in late 2006 after fierce clashes between Ansarul Islam and Lashkar-i-Islam.

Security forces demolished the house of Haji Mesri Khan, a member of the Lashkar Shura, in the Shalobar area.

Tayyeb Afridi, Lashkar Islam’s ‘chief commander’, was told to vacate his house in the same area.

Security force fired in the air to disperse local youths who had gathered to see the demolition of houses. Ironically, no Lashkar activist has been arrested during the operation.

Lashkar sources in Bara claimed that most of their activists were engaged in fighting the Ansar group in Tirah valley. The week-long fighting has so far claimed the lives of 40 people from both sides.

Mangal Bagh continued his propaganda broadcasts from the Tirah Valley. He told his supporters not to put up any resistance to the security forces and urged them to remain calm. He said the “army operation will not help the government achieve its objectives” or stop him from purging the Bara of “all anti-social elements and providing justice to the poor”.

Haji Namdar, head of another militant organisation, Amr Bil Maroof wa Nahi Anil Munkir, also criticised the operation and called for resolving the issue through talks.

Speaking on his own FM station, he said the operation had added to people problems and urged the local administration to immediately stop it. Meanwhile, Additional Chief Secretary Fata Habibullah Khan told a press briefing in Peshawar that security forces had been authorised to eliminate all pockets of resistance in Bara. He said that the operation was in full swing and the government would not allow any group to establish a parallel administration.

“The Lashkar was not involved in terrorism but was working to oust criminal elements,” his 50-year-old brother Sacha Gul said.

Staff Correspondent Zulfiqar Ali contributed to this report from Peshawar.

The Lame Duck Government
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JG01Df01.html
Jul 1, 2008



Smoke and mirrors in the Khyber Valley
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

KARACHI - After a 10-hour operation at the weekend, Pakistan said that paramilitary forces had reclaimed the strategic Khyber Agency from Taliban militants, at the same time implying to Washington that the country is serious about going after the Taliban.

The Khyber Agency borders Afghanistan and is a vital transit point for North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) supplies going into Nangarhar province of that country.

But while pockets of Taliban were chased from some of their hideouts, the operation was directed against the wrong area and



the wrong people, underscoring the government's reluctance for direct confrontation with the Pakistani Taliban.

Intrigue and deception
Riding with the paramilitary convoys was Haji Namdar, the chief of the self-proclaimed pro-Taliban organization Amal Bil Maroof Nahi Anil Munkir that is based in Khyber Agency. His presence was meant to be a secret as his organization was supposed to be one of the targets of the operation.

He was taken along to ensure that encounters with militants were kept to a minimum, as was the case - only four people were arrested and none killed.

Haji Namdar is a highly controversial character. As a believer in the Salafi strain of Islam he was tapped up by the Taliban and al-Qaeda to be their point man to help them establish a foothold in the Khyber Agency so that they could attack NATO supply lines. Haji Namdar agreed, then in April he betrayed the Taliban to US intelligence for a reward of US$150,000. (See Taliban bitten by a snake in the grass Asia Times Online, April 26, 2008.)

Within weeks, Haji Namdar was targeted in a suicide attack, but escaped unhurt. And on Monday, he once again avoided injury when one of his offices on the outskirts of Peshawar in North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) bordering Khyber Agency was fired on by missiles. Seven other people were killed.

The weekend's military operations were directed primarily against two organizations - Lashkar-i-Islam led by a bus cleaner turned commander, Mangal Bagh, and a Sufi organization, Ansar ul-Islam, besides Haji Namdar's group.

The rationale for the operation was said to be that these organizations were Taliban franchises and were trying to Talibanize Khyber Agency and the adjacent city of Peshawar.

More pertinent were US concerns over NATO's supply lines. The decision to go ahead with the operation was a pledge by US President George W Bush to President Pervez Musharraf to ensure the delivery of four F-16 aircraft to Pakistan. The issue was also on top of the agenda when the head of the NATO force in Afghanistan, General David McKiernan, met former Pakistani ambassador to Washington and present advisor to the government in Islamabad on national security, retired Major General Mehmood Ali Durrani, last Friday.

The groups targeted, though, are mainly sectarian with no affiliation to the Taliban - they are sympathetic at most. This has led to speculation that the military is simply trying to buy time from Washington while avoiding direct confrontation with the "real Taliban".

The fact is, after the Taliban were betrayed by Haji Namdar in April their central power now lies in the South Waziristan tribal area, the Swat Valley and Darra Adam Khail in NWFP.

Nevertheless, the military excursion into Khyber Agency did provide the Pakistani Taliban with a golden opportunity. One of its key leaders, Baitullah Mehsud, who is said to be behind the first attack against Haji Namdar, used the occasion to appeal to non-Taliban militants in Khyber Agency for their support.

Mehsud also said he would break all peace agreements with the government and that he would send attackers into other provinces as a response to any real moves by the government to target the Taliban.

Islamabad is under intense pressure from Washington to destroy the Taliban bases inside Pakistan that supply the insurgency in Afghanistan and to stem the easy flow of Taliban fighters across the border.

The coalition government, only in office for a matter of months, is already on the brink of collapse and the last thing it wants now is the added problem of full-out operations against militants - these have in the past proved highly unpopular and seldom achieved their goals.

Similarly, the Taliban are heavily engaged in Afghanistan and they do not want the distraction of having to fight battles in Pakistan.

The result is charades such as the weekend's Khyber Agency incident in which all sides, including Washington, appear to be satisfied.

The Lame Duck Government Former Taliban describe being trained by Pakistan Army to kill foreigners in Afghanistan:

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/449857

They got $500 a month too....

The Lame Duck Government It is interesting that this is a repeat of history with Jihadis concentrated in NWFP getting their butts kicked but due to isolation and intense Islamic indoctrination and a flow of recruits and finance from outside continually regrouping and keeping their jihad alive.

Pakistani Govt's double game is keeping them alive this time however finally they have to make some moves or else US will make a mockery of their border and do the job themselves. What other options do they have but to start some half-hearted show effort of tackling the fanatics themselves.

The British went up and kicked Jihadi butt plenty of times but due to no real economic incentives didn't do the job fully.

Mullah Urstruly should put his faith in Allah and Mohd and go up there and take a few potshots at the USA and the napak fouj himself rather than his chowk potshots.

The USA Ababil birds will quickly take care of the silly Jihadi myth believers if they tire of Pakistani double dealings.......

Pakistan\'s Nuclear Test - Ten Years Later Masadi should F off to Saudi Arabia where he will get paid less than the white man based on his wheatish complexion rather than equal wages of the evil US.

Urstruly the hypocrite should leave the US too as he openly supports blowing up Western embassies because of 'insulting' cartoons.

Why can't he move to Saudi too?

New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan Sorry for the numerous grammatical errors in that response. Should have checked it before posting it.

New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan Pavo:
in my opinion Sivaji was the greatest leader of Hindu India.He removed that inferiority complex that Hindus had developed in military terms.

Probably correct.

Pavo:
Interestingly he was a vassal of a Shia Muslim state and opposed Aurangzeb when he destroyed that Shia Muslim state.

Not exactly as straight forward as that. He and his father switched sides several times from memory.

Pavo:
The Sikhs also paid a major role but the Mughal Empire was basically destroyed by the Marathas.Nadir Shah and Abdali later used this to further destroy the Mughals.

Correct.

The Marathas were vassals and used as hired fighter by the Shia Muslim Kingdoms and were in trained guerilla warfare by them. Amber Malik, an African slave turned general successfully resisted the Mughals with tactics of cutting off supplies. The Marattas turned this tactic into an artform. They also mastered raiding patterns.

The Maratta tactics were highly like the ghazwa tactics favoured by the jihadis throughout history which by their continued economic plundering raids weakened neighbouring states and allowed expanding of areas under control. Of course the Marattas were never as brutal, ruthless and immoral as jihadis with their massive enslavements, selling of slaves and enslavement of non-Muslim women and piling them up in their harems.

New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan This article has it's plus and minus points. The point about setting a duty free textile zone though is a terrible one from the US perspective.

First according to a previous cut and paste article from Pavo the Pashtun Afghans are bunch of tough guys who can never accept foreign rule. That they would take up tailoring and forget about fighting is fanciful to say the least.

Second, whole of Pakistan would smuggle their textiles to these duty free zones so they could get duty free entry to the US. So it would really benefit Pakistan and the smuggling industry mainly.

Third, as others pointed out textile, garment industry is cutthroat and requires scale etc.

But getting economics going is the way to go. It should be done in the stable areas like Jalalabad, Kabul, Herat, Mazar-e-Sharif. The Kandahar Taliban stronghold should be quarantined and let those from that area suffer backwardness that the Taliban influence engenders and let good propaganda be made of the retrogressive nature of Taliban rule, economically particularly as that is what people consider first and foremost.

The corrupt local warlord leadership needs limiting in their theiving and earning from smuggling and the Karzai Govt needs to gain control of these income streams. US aid should be linked to matching amounts gained from taxing goods imported and exported. Then the Afghan Govt would have a super incentive to improve upon the collection of these taxes which as the author points out are the major source of revenue which the state could be getting.