Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance What do you expect people to do when you take people from their houses and make them disappear for years without charge? Our government has been doing that and that was one of the Chief Justice's issues of discord with the government.

What do you expect people to do when you launch missiles into their neighborhoods to take out one "terrorist" hideout and kill 100 other innocent people in the process?

Why is the Pakistan army screenings its own soldiers to ensure only the most carefully selected are being sent to fight this war? It because they realize this war is injust and widely unpopular amongst everyone.

Please look at things in the proper context, these are not necessarily people who have nothing to complain about. They are the most uneducated, but most loyal people in our country and we should have given them more respect...they are not terrorists. I saw General Durrani, former ISI Chief, saying on TV the other day that these people are the flesh and blood of Pakistan and were it not for them, we could never had held the territories from India that we have. We should treat them with much more respect than this. We have paid them with missiles and death. That is just totally unfair. And now because they fight back, we call them terrorists and extremists. Of course, their poverty, lack of education and backwardness will cause brutal incidents like beheadings, but who instigated this?

And BTW, I am a major Mushy supporter who is saying this.

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance #11....there is no such thing as Islamo-fascism...that is a bullshit term coined by the nut cases in the west who are hell bent on bringing about an Armageddon with a clash between the good christian folks and us dark skinned Gog and Magog folk....look in a little more depth and see where the words you are using come from and which agenda they represent. This is not a conspiracy theory, it is open knowledge that Jerry Falwell and the Christian right believe these things about us and use these terms.

The whole anti-maulvi thing is really getting old though. It hasnt been maulvis who have been robbing the country for the last 20 years, it has been the two main secular parties; Nawaz and Bibi. It is the secularists who brought this country to disaster in recent history, not the maulvis who have at best been minor players/irritants. Who defended us from a Soviet invasion...a bunch of faggot secularists? No...it was Muslims! The lawyers are no example, so I don't want to bother commenting on that. I have never heard of a nation being defended against its enemies by the people of this profession.

Also, you lump all people who believe in religion together when you say things like, "thinking they are doing their islamic duty by praying and hajj, when in fact their islamic duty is to do the opposite of what they do when they engage in sectarianism, act as if muslims are a "chosen people", make a de facto god out of human beings (including the prophet himself), and so on." Rather than being so ashamed of our Muslim identity, my point is to make it our own and use it to strengthen ourselves rather than divide. No matter how much you fight it, Pakistan will always remain a Muslim country and those who wish to change that will likely tear it apart in the process because those of us who do believe in religion being a major part of our identity and governance will fight tooth and nail for their right to live the way they feel is right.

Also, for rf786....if you try hard enough you will always find someone who knows someone who is a part of any of those organizations such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbullah and Hezbut Tahrir...but I have never come across anyone, even 7 degrees removed who even remotely has even met someone who is Al Qaeda. Neither I, not many of the people I know in Pakistani intelligence (on a friendly basis) believe that Al Qaeda even really exists. You are saying that political Islam turned in fascism in the 70s in Pakistan, but I am telling you that these are the terms used by those who wish us the greatest harm. You think Jerry Falwell and his Armageddon crew care that you are a secular Muslim? The probably want to wipe you out just as much as they want to get rid of the rest of us colored non Christian folk.

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance Dude, Hamid...that just sounds incredibly closed minded of you. You are passing judgment on an article without reading it, pronouncing all islam as "gibberish in arabic", and see the light...what light are you referring to? I think the only way forward is to understand one another instead of trying to force upon one another without even listening to what the other guy has to say. And lets not forget one thing, if Pakistan has ever been protected by sons who are willing to die for her, it hasnt been from this secular pooftas who would be on the next plane out of here in such a situation. When our soldiers die protecting our country, they are called Shaheed! So I would highly recommend having respect for the religion and its followers who are first in line to defend this country from outside forces. AN army of secularists in Pakistan would consist of corrupt, debauched, and cowardly individuals who wouldnt stand a single battle....what for? What is Pakistan if not a Muslim country?

The Empire Strikes Again in Pakistan Why Harysh, did the Kabulis refuse to pay you after you spread yours? You seem to be speaking from experience.

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance Dear rf786,

Islamo-fascism is a term mostly used by the likes of Jerry Falwell and other right wing bible thumping christians and fanatic zionists, but has now made it into the mainstream after years of repeated use by these fellows. It serves no purpose except to lump all of the poor and uneducated classes amongst the muslim world's rural communities into one enemy (in place of communism) for the western world.

The actual fact is that no such thing exists and I urge thinking Muslims to recognize these things. Certainly there are plenty of misguided and backward muslims amongst us who need to be educated, but we should not fall into the trap of our enemies who have always divided and ruled us. Have we not learnt anything from history?

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance BTW, do you realize that even Dubai has a Sharia based system of law? They have made it their own....why can't we?

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance Laddu....have you even asked yourself what Khilafat is? I mean, people seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to Shariah or the concept of Khilafat. Tell me how wonderfully democracy and capitalism are working out for 30% of America's poor. Tell me how capitalism is the most stable system that doesnt almost collapse once every 10 years. Tell me capitalism doesn't cause extreme disparities in wealth.

We should have a little more pride in our history and heritage and not be so quick to reject it for the experience of another nation on the other side of the world that has historically told us that they are superior and we are the dark skinned lesser humans. Maybe if we took these ideas of Sharia and Khilafat and spoke about them amongst ourselves and made them our own and viable in our lives, we would have more connection to our own history, more pride in our way of life, and less strife within our communities.

Democracy as we are being told by the Americans is their idea of this concept, and we should have our own that suits us. In the evolution of society and ideas, can we ever say that such and such an idea (Democracy/Capitalism) is the and the final solution to all our questions? I don't think so. We should be willing to question democracy, capitalism and the western way of life just as much as we tend to question Islam and Sharia.

I definitely do not support talibanization, but I really question the knee-jerk reaction against these ideas. People seem to have been brain washed to reject anything related to religion and that is simply a shame.

Religiosity, National Ethos and Governance I think everyone has mixed feelings about what is happening to our country. I stand by Mushy in this situation but I do have very grave concerns about so many things:

1. In the US, after GWB controversially won his first election there were threats of court battles and the situation could have gotten ugly...but they have a tradition of rallying behind the person whom is in charge. I wish we had more of this in us; even if we disagree with our leaders, we should never take democracy to mean that destabilizing the entire situation is an expression of our democratic rights....its just not right for the country. Its not easy to make another country, we should cherish what we have and protect it with our dear lives.

2. Mushy has made some terrible mistakes and he should be held accountable for those, but not while he is running the country and we have so many problems to take care of. The war against our own people cannot go on. No matter how much we think they are extremists, we cannot forget that they are our own flesh and blood and we cannot declare war on them...it will lead to civil war in Pakistan and dismemberment of the state. This is an American agenda and Mushy and all other "leaders" should steer clear of the US agenda in Pakistan.

3. Bibi seems to be even more eager than Mushy to push the American agenda. She even disgracefully said in the press that the Americans should use all leverage, including aid, to pressure Pakistan into compliance. Rather than fight for our sovereignty, Bibi is more than willing to sell us down the river to save her legacy and looted gains. I fear that Bibi will lead us to civil war through the US agenda in Pakistan.

4. The Americans seem hell-bent on destroying Pakistan from within. Iraq and Iran still require and outside force to invade and destroy. In Pakistan they have found that internal fractures don't require them to even set foot on the ground; they are having us fight one another. The recent batch of soldiers sent to SWAT was screen to ensure no pashtuns were included. How can we start discriminating amongst ourselves like this?

5. The judiciary should always remain independent and the Chief Justice did many great things. However, he should not have gone in the same current as the opposition which sought to destabilize the country. In this, he committed a grave offense against the country. In all democracies, national interest is weighed heavily against idealistic concerns of the legal community and often national security prevails. In the west, specially the US and UK, you have countless examples in recent years. Why did the CJ not give a damn about destabilizing the entire country? He should have left Mushy's democracy agenda alone and let Phase 3 take place. Idealism fails to realize that stability, not democracy, is what we need. We cannot have democracy because we dont have enough free people to vote. Feudalism and Feudals must be eliminated before true democracy can happen in Pakistan.

6. The media has been absolutely disgraceful. They simply thrive on controversy and negativity. I have not seen anything positive about everything good that has happened in Pakistan in the last 8 years. And if they do show something positive, they will never credit the government for it. People like Ayesha Tammy Haq simply have no sincerity for the country and are out there for photo ops. Where the hell were they during Bibi or Nawaz's terms? They know that Mushy will not lock them up for their behavior on TV so they take unfair advantage and openly display a disgraceful bias without any information that balances their disinformation. Just pick up Dawn and you have Mr Social Elite's (Hameed Haroon with his british accent) newspaper demonstrating its impeccable "Civil Society" credentials by ensuring that nothing positive is allowed to make it to the front page. No sir, criticism of the government is a sign of enlightenment amongst the GT magazine crowd and they love to show how pro-democracy they are and how much they represent the forces of moderation in Pakistan. Do the really represent anyone in Pakistan except themselves? The point is that the media has been a disgrace and should have been more responsible and people like Hameed Haroon should finally stop taking their monthly stipends from the CIA and show some loyalty to the country of their forefathers. Western media does criticize, but it does not cross and break every boundary as does Pakistani media. New freedom has been totally abused and I am glad that some rules will be put back in place.

7. The war on terror is a war not only on Islam, but all muslim countries one by one. We should steer clear of it and tell the Americans and their Zionist masters to go Screw their themselves. Enlightened moderation is bullshit. Please stop trying to come up with a new Deen-e-Ilahi and stick to your job as the leader of the country, not the faith. Meddling in this will get you killed and there will be no sympathy for you in any quarter except the sellout GT magazine crowd and bastard/prostitute infested "Civil Society".

8. The army really should get the hell out of everything. In fact, we should cut our budget down completely and declare unilateral peace with India. What the hell are we fighting for anyway? Its costing us both much more than its worth and there really shouldn't be any enmity anymore. The army should also be kicked out of banking, fertilizers, land development, DHA's and everything else. They should be stripped of their perks and sent back to the barracks. No more DHA, no more Askari corporation, no more the country existing for the army rather than the other way around! The armed forces should also be forced to give up all lands in and around the cities and be kicked out into the outskirts. Army people should not be compensated with land and the army should never be allowed to build DHA-like areas. These should all be returned to civilian rule.

9. Federations can only function properly if all the provinces are more or less equal. Punjab really throws all of this out of balance and steps should be taken to correct this mistake once and for all. Punjab should be split into 3 provinces; South, Central and North. This would give Pakistan 6 more or less equal provinces and Balochistan, NWFP and Sindh may have fewer legitimate complaints in the future if we take this bold step. The army should also be de-punjabized. It must represent all of Pakistan and this monopolization should be ended. I realize that many top generals come from NWFP and even amongst the Urdu speaking people, but everyone knows that the army has a punjabi culture and we must change that to make everyone feel that it is theirs.

10. Benazir, Nawaz, Altaf, Fazlur Rehman, Qazi, Bugti, Pir Pagara, and all other leaders that we have seen so far are all traitors. I wish the extremists would take them out instead of innocent people. The people should finally wake up and come up with a new set of people to represent them. PPP is a party of feudals. MQM is a terrorist party. PML is a punjabi party, not a Pakistani party..they always did what they did for Punjab and Lahore and didn't do much for Karachi with taxes mostly paid by Karachites. Qazi and FazlurRehman are munafiqs who misuse religion for their own gains while they secretly party it up in Dubai with underage hookers and gigolos. Not kidding!!

11. There is an exercise taking place right now to destabilize Pakistan in which Bibi, the lawyers, the media and others are all participating for their own ends. This will probably end up taking us to civil war. As drastic as this sounds, I think Mushy should have taken some tough decisions and actually really come down hard on these elements before. Now its almost too late. He should have executed a few of these elements for treason and all of these photo op people would have immediately backed off to their normal positions. Now, he has no choice but to try to smooth things out and hope for the best. He will probably compromise with Bibi and seal all of our fates with this witch from hell.

12. Mark my words, Bibi will cause a civil war. She is arrogant, a slave to foreign interests, totally insincere, completely misguided, surrounded by feudals/thugs/prostitutes/social climbers, unable to work with others, easily makes enemies for life, hated by the army, hated by most people who remember what she and her husband have done to our country.

God, I pray for a miracle!

The Empire Strikes Again in Pakistan I do see the contradiction and I realize how bad it is...but I really do believe that anyone else will be much worse. Bibi, if she wasn't born in Zulfi Bhutto's house would probably have been on some street corner of a red light area in Amsterdam. She is only slightly better than Altaf Hussain. All of them would do much worse. I think that the sooner Phase 3 is completed, the sooner we will be on our way to being out of this mess with more broad based say in the way our affairs are run. If it is prolonged to much, we will be plunged into civil war, and it will be a legitimate civil war. That would be the worse kind.

The Empire Strikes Again in Pakistan I think everyone has mixed feelings about what is happening to our country. I stand by Mushy in this situation but I do have very grave concerns about so many things:

1. In the US, after GWB controversially won his first election there were threats of court battles and the situation could have gotten ugly...but they have a tradition of rallying behind the person whom is in charge. I wish we had more of this in us; even if we disagree with our leaders, we should never take democracy to mean that destabilizing the entire situation is an expression of our democratic rights....its just not right for the country. Its not easy to make another country, we should cherish what we have and protect it with our dear lives.

2. Mushy has made some terrible mistakes and he should be held accountable for those, but not while he is running the country and we have so many problems to take care of. The war against our own people cannot go on. No matter how much we think they are extremists, we cannot forget that they are our own flesh and blood and we cannot declare war on them...it will lead to civil war in Pakistan and dismemberment of the state. This is an American agenda and Mushy and all other "leaders" should steer clear of the US agenda in Pakistan.

3. Bibi seems to be even more eager than Mushy to push the American agenda. She even disgracefully said in the press that the Americans should use all leverage, including aid, to pressure Pakistan into compliance. Rather than fight for our sovereignty, Bibi is more than willing to sell us down the river to save her legacy and looted gains. I fear that Bibi will lead us to civil war through the US agenda in Pakistan.

4. The Americans seem hell-bent on destroying Pakistan from within. Iraq and Iran still require and outside force to invade and destroy. In Pakistan they have found that internal fractures don't require them to even set foot on the ground; they are having us fight one another. The recent batch of soldiers sent to SWAT was screen to ensure no pashtuns were included. How can we start discriminating amongst ourselves like this?

5. The judiciary should always remain independent and the Chief Justice did many great things. However, he should not have gone in the same current as the opposition which sought to destabilize the country. In this, he committed a grave offense against the country. In all democracies, national interest is weighed heavily against idealistic concerns of the legal community and often national security prevails. In the west, specially the US and UK, you have countless examples in recent years. Why did the CJ not give a damn about destabilizing the entire country? He should have left Mushy's democracy agenda alone and let Phase 3 take place. Idealism fails to realize that stability, not democracy, is what we need. We cannot have democracy because we dont have enough free people to vote. Feudalism and Feudals must be eliminated before true democracy can happen in Pakistan.

6. The media has been absolutely disgraceful. They simply thrive on controversy and negativity. I have not seen anything positive about everything good that has happened in Pakistan in the last 8 years. And if they do show something positive, they will never credit the government for it. People like Ayesha Tammy Haq simply have no sincerity for the country and are out there for photo ops. Where the hell were they during Bibi or Nawaz's terms? They know that Mushy will not lock them up for their behavior on TV so they take unfair advantage and openly display a disgraceful bias without any information that balances their disinformation. Just pick up Dawn and you have Mr Social Elite's (Hameed Haroon with his british accent) newspaper demonstrating its impeccable "Civil Society" credentials by ensuring that nothing positive is allowed to make it to the front page. No sir, criticism of the government is a sign of enlightenment amongst the GT magazine crowd and they love to show how pro-democracy they are and how much they represent the forces of moderation in Pakistan. Do the really represent anyone in Pakistan except themselves? The point is that the media has been a disgrace and should have been more responsible and people like Hameed Haroon should finally stop taking their monthly stipends from the CIA and show some loyalty to the country of their forefathers. Western media does criticize, but it does not cross and break every boundary as does Pakistani media. New freedom has been totally abused and I am glad that some rules will be put back in place.

7. The war on terror is a war not only on Islam, but all muslim countries one by one. We should steer clear of it and tell the Americans and their Zionist masters to go Screw their themselves. Enlightened moderation is bullshit. Please stop trying to come up with a new Deen-e-Ilahi and stick to your job as the leader of the country, not the faith. Meddling in this will get you killed and there will be no sympathy for you in any quarter except the sellout GT magazine crowd and bastard/prostitute infested "Civil Society".

8. The army really should get the hell out of everything. In fact, we should cut our budget down completely and declare unilateral peace with India. What the hell are we fighting for anyway? Its costing us both much more than its worth and there really shouldn't be any enmity anymore. The army should also be kicked out of banking, fertilizers, land development, DHA's and everything else. They should be stripped of their perks and sent back to the barracks. No more DHA, no more Askari corporation, no more the country existing for the army rather than the other way around! The armed forces should also be forced to give up all lands in and around the cities and be kicked out into the outskirts. Army people should not be compensated with land and the army should never be allowed to build DHA-like areas. These should all be returned to civilian rule.

9. Federations can only function properly if all the provinces are more or less equal. Punjab really throws all of this out of balance and steps should be taken to correct this mistake once and for all. Punjab should be split into 3 provinces; South, Central and North. This would give Pakistan 6 more or less equal provinces and Balochistan, NWFP and Sindh may have fewer legitimate complaints in the future if we take this bold step. The army should also be de-punjabized. It must represent all of Pakistan and this monopolization should be ended. I realize that many top generals come from NWFP and even amongst the Urdu speaking people, but everyone knows that the army has a punjabi culture and we must change that to make everyone feel that it is theirs.

10. Benazir, Nawaz, Altaf, Fazlur Rehman, Qazi, Bugti, Pir Pagara, and all other leaders that we have seen so far are all traitors. I wish the extremists would take them out instead of innocent people. The people should finally wake up and come up with a new set of people to represent them. PPP is a party of feudals. MQM is a terrorist party. PML is a punjabi party, not a Pakistani party..they always did what they did for Punjab and Lahore and didn't do much for Karachi with taxes mostly paid by Karachites. Qazi and FazlurRehman are munafiqs who misuse religion for their own gains while they secretly party it up in Dubai with underage hookers and gigolos. Not kidding!!

11. There is an exercise taking place right now to destabilize Pakistan in which Bibi, the lawyers, the media and others are all participating for their own ends. This will probably end up taking us to civil war. As drastic as this sounds, I think Mushy should have taken some tough decisions and actually really come down hard on these elements before. Now its almost too late. He should have executed a few of these elements for treason and all of these photo op people would have immediately backed off to their normal positions. Now, he has no choice but to try to smooth things out and hope for the best. He will probably compromise with Bibi and seal all of our fates with this witch from hell.

12. Mark my words, Bibi will cause a civil war. She is arrogant, a slave to foreign interests, totally insincere, completely misguided, surrounded by feudals/thugs/prostitutes/social climbers, unable to work with others, easily makes enemies for life, hated by the army, hated by most people who remember what she and her husband have done to our country.

God, I pray for a miracle!

Do You Have a Substitute? Oh I'm not annoyed by you guys at all....I'm just amazed at how much time you guys dedicate to this thing and how fanatically you enjoy what you think you are achieving. Please knock yourself out and post all you like it only serves to re-enforce my point that you guys are a bunch of losers with too much time on their hands.

BTW Jayp, I never mentioned color and didnt even think it when I wrote my post but your inferiority complex did come out in your jumping to conclusions.

Have fun piss-drinkers keep on posting!

Do You Have a Substitute? Very original. Bet you'll be using that for a while here.

Growing up in Dubai, I always enjoyed kicking the crap out of the Hindu kids in school. Honest truth: when the Babri masjid was demolished in India, my friends and I all beat up almost every Hindu in school. I'll bet Harish is one of those kids who had the crap kicked out of him by some our of Paki boys and now holds it against all of us for the rest of his life.

What a loser! See you man...I have some work to do now and my quota is more than done for a while. I'm sure you're going to be around for a while fighting with every one of us enemies of Ma Bharat. If you ever get tired of this and need to make a buck to get by, I can honestly hook you up with a job as a janitor in Dubai...let me know.

Do You Have a Substitute? BTW, on every trip to India that I have ever been on I have experienced that Indian women prefer Pakistani men because they find our language and culture to be very attractive. You will notice that most of the top actors in Bollywood are Muslims. Finally, the Muslims are also a major factor in everything that India can claim to boast about. So I dont know what you Hindu fanatics are on about, even in India, Muslims are there at the top in every field. You guys are just pissed off because the BJP and others fanatics have brain washed you into thinking that Pakistan and Pakistanis are the enemy. Get on with your life, seek some counseling,get a job and contribute to your country in a more meaningful way than bitching about others on the net.

Do You Have a Substitute? "Bear in mind, you can not get rid of us. This is just the beginning; we will be always there at every fall of yours at every drop of your blood oozing out, till you breathe your last sigh."

Vaaiz...thats pretty twisted man you may want to seek some psychological help for those issues, it simply aint normal no matter how much you compare it to crowds accumulating to watch accidents. Also, I understand its your religion but you may want to cut down on the cow urine...it is toxic after all and it may be affecting your mental health.

"And if only you guys got off your behinds and did something worthwhile to resist the tinpot dictators who've ruled you for the better part of 60 years, you would have had democracy by now."

Yes Harish, we'll learn how to use our time wisely from a loser wannabe RAW agent like you who spends his days fighting the Pakistanis on the net.

Ranjit, guys like you are always welcome who just want to discuss properly but you have to understand my point of view about this bunch of morons who seem to have dedicated their lives to....I'm not sure what their purpose is actually.

Do You Have a Substitute? My God Harish, you have been brutal in your assault on us. Your words have not only left me demoralized, but have brought shame upon Pakistan. Your mission to be the disruptive element in a Pakistani forum has been thoroughly accomplished. You can now scurry on along to your next RAW mission.

Maybe if you call in sick and take another 3 days off work you can deliver more of your deadly stinging posts to the tamil forums and wreak havoc among Ma Bharat’s enemies. Yes Harish, you should do it…..Bhagwan needs you! If only more Indians took time off their daily lives to conquer the nation’s enemies on the net.

Do You Have a Substitute? I think this has degenerated enough. I suggest if you Hindus want to discuss things in a forum such as this, keep your anti-Pakistan sentiments and agenda to yourself or screw off and spend your time in some forum more relevant to your own life.