Small Spies Must be Hanged , While Bigger Ones Prosper
No politician has bothered to ammend Official Secret Act 1923.
No judge has prosecuted any paki intelligence officer for torturing to death a civilian suspect.As a matter of fact every year between 20 to 200 civilians are tortured to death,mostly in Balochistan but also in all provinces .In most cases their report says heart attack and many are just secretly burried without a trace.
In India an army officer can go to any civil court while in Pakistan civilian prime ministers were pioneers in ensuring that army is deprived of basic rights.
If politicians liberate the army the top 2 % major generals and above the real black guards trade union of generals will be reduced to size by the army.
I hope someone advises the PPP to do it .This is a real test case.The Khalsa , army of the so called pure needs to be democratised.
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 27, 2008 09:45 pm
the crux of the matter is that while Indian Army is highly democratised no Pakistani officer or soldier has the right to appeal to a civil court.no pakistani politician has bothered to give this basic right to the army.Liaquat Ali Khan was the culprit who took this basic right away in 1951 at the time of Rawalpindi conspiracy.No politician has bothered to ammend Official Secret Act 1923.
No judge has prosecuted any paki intelligence officer for torturing to death a civilian suspect.As a matter of fact every year between 20 to 200 civilians are tortured to death,mostly in Balochistan but also in all provinces .In most cases their report says heart attack and many are just secretly burried without a trace.
In India an army officer can go to any civil court while in Pakistan civilian prime ministers were pioneers in ensuring that army is deprived of basic rights.
If politicians liberate the army the top 2 % major generals and above the real black guards trade union of generals will be reduced to size by the army.
I hope someone advises the PPP to do it .This is a real test case.The Khalsa , army of the so called pure needs to be democratised.
Small Spies Must be Hanged , While Bigger Ones Prosper
About Musharraf's scams history will judge and as I understand the details will start emerging soon.
About Kargil its clear from 1999 that it was a faux pas and many false gallantry awards were awarded to many brigadier level officers.There was one case of a major level staff officer relieving himself , struck by a small stone on the forehead and awarded an SJ.Without Indian insistence Karnal Captain Sher Khan would never have got a Nishan in Haider.My source is a major from engineers corps sent personally by Lieut General Ziauddin to investigate the fiasco in 1999.
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 27, 2008 09:32 pm
the 1971 war was as my friend and more than that a respectable Indian military analyst Ravi Rikhye says " India's Strategic Failure".India failed to knock out West Pakistan the centre of gravity ! While it created a new Muslim state which is far militarily stronger than what Pakistan had in former East Pakistan and can be quite hostile to India in the long run.Many Bangladeshi officers were my students in Armour School and I was surprised to note that they hated India.About Musharraf's scams history will judge and as I understand the details will start emerging soon.
About Kargil its clear from 1999 that it was a faux pas and many false gallantry awards were awarded to many brigadier level officers.There was one case of a major level staff officer relieving himself , struck by a small stone on the forehead and awarded an SJ.Without Indian insistence Karnal Captain Sher Khan would never have got a Nishan in Haider.My source is a major from engineers corps sent personally by Lieut General Ziauddin to investigate the fiasco in 1999.
Why not hang Surabjit Singh?
A.Amin
There is great talk now about hanging or not hanging this or that Indian or Pakistani convicted for spying.
Brigadier Tirmizi ex ISIs book profiles of intelligence states that Munir Ahmad Khan Chairman Atomic Energy Commission Pakistan was spying for USA.One of the editorials of Pakistan Times published in 1947 or 48 stated that G.Ahmad brother the first Pakistani Director of Intelligence Bureau a brother of secretary Aziz Ahmad was a British spy.The list is countless.ayub khan also refers in his diaries to the incident that Indian war plan was purchased in late 50s , what gohar ayub in glimpses from corridors of power states was sold by FIELD MARSHALL MANEKSHAW for a gardening set.Another Indian author I read also stated that Manekshaw had links with Brits.All these can be debated but the fact remains that in pakistanb and india only poor border crossers referred to in intelligence terminology are prosecuted.no one has charged anyone for genocide or for any betrayal at higher level. The law is basically for the poor man.in cases of espionage official secrets act of 1923 , no politician bothered to revise this arbitrary british law.Its so arbitraty that a man loitering near any armed forces installations can be hanged.No Pakistani politician made any attempt to change it.Even the Pakistani politicians failed to give the army personnel the basic constitutional right to appeal enjoyed in India.Thus while ZA Bhutto did allow this initially , he immediately took it back once the Attock Conspiracy took place.
If you look at the Pakistani politicians they are 80 % the descendants of those who collaborated with the British in 1857.
Statistics reveal that between 10 to 200 suspects in espionage cases are tortured to death by the armed forces intelligence agencies.No one is prosecuted.There is no record of these tragic victims of outright murder.The excesses committed by Pakistani law enforcement agencies armed forces , civilian intelligence or police can be fairly matched with Indian excesses in Kashmir.Why talk about plebiscite in Kashmir.What about a plebiscite in Balochistan or tribal area.
The grand party of crooks continues since 1947.Malik Riaz gifts expensive houses to army generals many of them sons of rankers and no one talks.But when Captain Babar was mistakenly and falsely convicted of removing a bulb from his office he was dismissed from army.Now we have Corps Commanders called Crore Commanders but they are perfectly respectable.
As I see it now the army and politicians in Pakistan have compromised.So the looting party will start with greater enthusiasm.I doubt if any new government will change anything.Musharraf is a mean mortal.He will go but the nexus of civil military corruption will stay.As long as this state exists.
no court sentenced general afzaal pakistani DMO or Field Marshal Manekshaw or Moraji Desai ex PM India to death.
Notes from Spynest published in many volumes from US documents captured from US Embassy Tehran state that Pakistani boss of military operations,custodian of Pakistani warplan was a US spy.The names include Sahibzada Yaqub also .Gohar Ayub Khan's memoirs state that Indian Chief Manekshaw sold the Indian war plan in 1950s to buy an expenisve gardening set for his wife which was then bought from paki intelligence money.moraji desai ex PM india was said to be a CIA spy.Its all economic . these death sentences for the poor man only.
As I understand that in Pakistan there is no law.One force is the army , another are the feudal-industrial politicians and thats all.Since the country was created by a small franchise not beyond 5 % of the population its a story of crooks looting the country.Basically financed by Muslim business classes from Gujrat and Bombay with support of Punjabi and Muslim feudals who were heavily in debt to Hindus this so called Islamic Republic was haven of all crooks.The situation continues till todate.Now the army generals again mostly lower middle class or middle class social climbers struck a deal with politicians condoning their scams by the so called NRO.This was done by Musharraf not for any idealistic reason but so that he is not prosecuted for his corruption.A magna carta of crooks.
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 24, 2008 05:56 am
Small Spies Must be Hanged , While Bigger Ones ProsperA.Amin
There is great talk now about hanging or not hanging this or that Indian or Pakistani convicted for spying.
Brigadier Tirmizi ex ISIs book profiles of intelligence states that Munir Ahmad Khan Chairman Atomic Energy Commission Pakistan was spying for USA.One of the editorials of Pakistan Times published in 1947 or 48 stated that G.Ahmad brother the first Pakistani Director of Intelligence Bureau a brother of secretary Aziz Ahmad was a British spy.The list is countless.ayub khan also refers in his diaries to the incident that Indian war plan was purchased in late 50s , what gohar ayub in glimpses from corridors of power states was sold by FIELD MARSHALL MANEKSHAW for a gardening set.Another Indian author I read also stated that Manekshaw had links with Brits.All these can be debated but the fact remains that in pakistanb and india only poor border crossers referred to in intelligence terminology are prosecuted.no one has charged anyone for genocide or for any betrayal at higher level. The law is basically for the poor man.in cases of espionage official secrets act of 1923 , no politician bothered to revise this arbitrary british law.Its so arbitraty that a man loitering near any armed forces installations can be hanged.No Pakistani politician made any attempt to change it.Even the Pakistani politicians failed to give the army personnel the basic constitutional right to appeal enjoyed in India.Thus while ZA Bhutto did allow this initially , he immediately took it back once the Attock Conspiracy took place.
If you look at the Pakistani politicians they are 80 % the descendants of those who collaborated with the British in 1857.
Statistics reveal that between 10 to 200 suspects in espionage cases are tortured to death by the armed forces intelligence agencies.No one is prosecuted.There is no record of these tragic victims of outright murder.The excesses committed by Pakistani law enforcement agencies armed forces , civilian intelligence or police can be fairly matched with Indian excesses in Kashmir.Why talk about plebiscite in Kashmir.What about a plebiscite in Balochistan or tribal area.
The grand party of crooks continues since 1947.Malik Riaz gifts expensive houses to army generals many of them sons of rankers and no one talks.But when Captain Babar was mistakenly and falsely convicted of removing a bulb from his office he was dismissed from army.Now we have Corps Commanders called Crore Commanders but they are perfectly respectable.
As I see it now the army and politicians in Pakistan have compromised.So the looting party will start with greater enthusiasm.I doubt if any new government will change anything.Musharraf is a mean mortal.He will go but the nexus of civil military corruption will stay.As long as this state exists.
no court sentenced general afzaal pakistani DMO or Field Marshal Manekshaw or Moraji Desai ex PM India to death.
Notes from Spynest published in many volumes from US documents captured from US Embassy Tehran state that Pakistani boss of military operations,custodian of Pakistani warplan was a US spy.The names include Sahibzada Yaqub also .Gohar Ayub Khan's memoirs state that Indian Chief Manekshaw sold the Indian war plan in 1950s to buy an expenisve gardening set for his wife which was then bought from paki intelligence money.moraji desai ex PM india was said to be a CIA spy.Its all economic . these death sentences for the poor man only.
As I understand that in Pakistan there is no law.One force is the army , another are the feudal-industrial politicians and thats all.Since the country was created by a small franchise not beyond 5 % of the population its a story of crooks looting the country.Basically financed by Muslim business classes from Gujrat and Bombay with support of Punjabi and Muslim feudals who were heavily in debt to Hindus this so called Islamic Republic was haven of all crooks.The situation continues till todate.Now the army generals again mostly lower middle class or middle class social climbers struck a deal with politicians condoning their scams by the so called NRO.This was done by Musharraf not for any idealistic reason but so that he is not prosecuted for his corruption.A magna carta of crooks.
Why not hang Surabjit Singh?
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 22, 2008 10:19 pm
brig tirmizi ex ISIs book profiles of intelligence states that munir ahmad khan chairman atomic energy commission pakistan was spying for USA.One of the editorials of Pakistan Times published in 1947 or 48 stated that G.Ahmad brother of secretary aziz ahmad was a brit spy.the list is countless.ayub khan also refers in his diaries to the incident that Indian war plan was purchased in late 50s , what gohar ayub in glimpses from corridors of power states was sold by FIELD MARSHALL MANEKSHAW for a gardening set.Another Indian author I read also stated that Manekshaw had links with Brits.All these can be debated but the fact remains that in pakistanb and india only poor border crossers referred to in intelligence terminology are prosecuted.no one has charged anyone for genocide or for any betrayal at higher level.
Why not hang Surabjit Singh?
no court sentenced general afzaal pakistani DMO or Field Marshal Manekshaw or Moraji Desai ex PM India to death.
Notes from Spynest published in many volumes from US documents captured from US Embassy Tehran state that Pakistani boss of military operations,custodian of Pakistani warplan was a US spy.The names include Sahibzada Yaqub also .Gohar Ayub Khan's memoirs state that Indian Chief Manekshaw sold the Indian war plan in 1950s to buy an expenisve gardening set for his wife which was then bought from paki intelligence money.moraji desai ex PM india was said to be a CIA spy.
its all economic . these death sentences for the poor man only.
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 22, 2008 10:15 pm
the law is basically for the poor man.in cases of espionage official secrets act of 1923 , no politician bothered to revise this arbitrary british law.no court sentenced general afzaal pakistani DMO or Field Marshal Manekshaw or Moraji Desai ex PM India to death.
Notes from Spynest published in many volumes from US documents captured from US Embassy Tehran state that Pakistani boss of military operations,custodian of Pakistani warplan was a US spy.The names include Sahibzada Yaqub also .Gohar Ayub Khan's memoirs state that Indian Chief Manekshaw sold the Indian war plan in 1950s to buy an expenisve gardening set for his wife which was then bought from paki intelligence money.moraji desai ex PM india was said to be a CIA spy.
its all economic . these death sentences for the poor man only.
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
u had asked whats w_____t P_______s , its wet pussies , a cat you know who got wet in the rain sir .
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 20, 2008 11:32 pm
Re: # 488 --- we are for progress , it can be anyone , because I am dealing with this part of the world since 30 years , in my personal capacity , custom clearing , logistics and those heavenly uninhabited passages, the Afghan hashish from mazar is top of the line and scotch is far cheaper than pakistan. then there are other attractions.u had asked whats w_____t P_______s , its wet pussies , a cat you know who got wet in the rain sir .
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
More than 10 private Afghan banks have emerged.One is a JV with ING Bank I think.
Fuel is one major business.All fuel is bought from Pakistan or Turkmenistan or smuggled from Iran (thats almost finished now with Ahmad Nijads bold policy of removing sub sidy).This is a billion dollar business.
Construction is another major business.Main donors are ADB,EU,JICA,WB , USAID,US Army , I am sub consultant of ADB in some surveys.
Indian government headed by Power Grid Corp India like Paki WAPDA is doing many projects.
National Highway Pakistan and NESPAK are also doing projects.Banking and insurance are booming.Anyone who sets a refinery will be the king.I am already working on this idea since 2000.My cousin in a leading European oil company tells me that Shibirgan-Mazar gas field is one of the biggest in the region.
The situation is as iqbal said,do not look from a distance, go jump into the sea and do battle with the waves,for immortality is won through striving.....that I may go in quest of the new spirit and become its acknowledged champion
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 20, 2008 11:17 pm
Roshan owned by Aga Khan started mobile tel ops in Afghanistan in 2002 and recovered their initial investment within 6 months .Now their subscribers exceed 1.5 Million I think.So did Afghan Telecom , Areeba (initial Lebanese now South African) and now Etisalat.China Telecom , ZTE are doing roaring business in telecom sector.More than 10 private Afghan banks have emerged.One is a JV with ING Bank I think.
Fuel is one major business.All fuel is bought from Pakistan or Turkmenistan or smuggled from Iran (thats almost finished now with Ahmad Nijads bold policy of removing sub sidy).This is a billion dollar business.
Construction is another major business.Main donors are ADB,EU,JICA,WB , USAID,US Army , I am sub consultant of ADB in some surveys.
Indian government headed by Power Grid Corp India like Paki WAPDA is doing many projects.
National Highway Pakistan and NESPAK are also doing projects.Banking and insurance are booming.Anyone who sets a refinery will be the king.I am already working on this idea since 2000.My cousin in a leading European oil company tells me that Shibirgan-Mazar gas field is one of the biggest in the region.
The situation is as iqbal said,do not look from a distance, go jump into the sea and do battle with the waves,for immortality is won through striving.....that I may go in quest of the new spirit and become its acknowledged champion
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
More than 10 private Afghan banks have emerged.One is a JV with ING Bank I think.
Fuel is one major business.All fuel is bought from Pakistan or Turkmenistan or smuggled from Iran (thats almost finished now with Ahmad Nijads bold policy of removing sub sidy).This is a billion dollar business.
Construction is another major business.Main donors are ADB,EU,JICA,WB , USAID,US Army , I am sub consultant of ADB in some surveys.
Indian government headed by Power Grid Corp India like Paki WAPDA is doing many projects.
National Highway Pakistan and NESPAK are also doing projects.Banking and insurance are booming.Anyone who sets a refinery will be the king.I am already working on this idea since 2000.My cousin in a leading European oil company tells me that Shibirgan-Mazar gas field is one of the biggest in the region.
The situation is as iqbal said,do not look from a distance, go jump into the sea and do battle with the waves,for immortality is won through striving.....that I may go in quest of the new spirit and become its acknowledged champion
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 20, 2008 11:17 pm
Roshan owned by Aga Khan started mobile tel ops in Afghanistan in 2002 and recovered their initial investment within 6 months .Now their subscribers exceed 1.5 Million I think.So did Afghan Telecom , Areeba (initial Lebanese now South African) and now Etisalat.China Telecom , ZTE are doing roaring business in telecom sector.More than 10 private Afghan banks have emerged.One is a JV with ING Bank I think.
Fuel is one major business.All fuel is bought from Pakistan or Turkmenistan or smuggled from Iran (thats almost finished now with Ahmad Nijads bold policy of removing sub sidy).This is a billion dollar business.
Construction is another major business.Main donors are ADB,EU,JICA,WB , USAID,US Army , I am sub consultant of ADB in some surveys.
Indian government headed by Power Grid Corp India like Paki WAPDA is doing many projects.
National Highway Pakistan and NESPAK are also doing projects.Banking and insurance are booming.Anyone who sets a refinery will be the king.I am already working on this idea since 2000.My cousin in a leading European oil company tells me that Shibirgan-Mazar gas field is one of the biggest in the region.
The situation is as iqbal said,do not look from a distance, go jump into the sea and do battle with the waves,for immortality is won through striving.....that I may go in quest of the new spirit and become its acknowledged champion
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 19, 2008 06:19 am
i am off , with regards to great Zeemax who retains that mischievous zest for life .Its Afghan New Year . A time to wine and dine and be happy , although all my bills are stopped and unpaid ! Still one can be happy.Its a state of mind !
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
presently india is doing salma dam , biggest irrigation project , it has almost done hairatn kabul transmission line , i was a sub contractor of KEC India , a small one although .pakistan has done torkham jalalabad road , india is also doing zaranj dilaram road which if security is guaranteed will replace karachi as main afghan transit port with chah bahar iran.
lets see what happens.
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 19, 2008 06:15 am
if afghanistan is not stabilised every one will get l____d , including india , pakistan, iran.presently india is doing salma dam , biggest irrigation project , it has almost done hairatn kabul transmission line , i was a sub contractor of KEC India , a small one although .pakistan has done torkham jalalabad road , india is also doing zaranj dilaram road which if security is guaranteed will replace karachi as main afghan transit port with chah bahar iran.
lets see what happens.
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
presently india is doing salma dam , biggest irrigation project , it has almost done hairatn kabul transmission line , i was a sub contractor of KEC India , a small one although .pakistan has done torkham jalalabad road , india is also doing zaranj dilaram road which if security is guaranteed will replace karachi as main afghan transit port with chah bahar iran.
lets see what happens.
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 19, 2008 06:15 am
if afghanistan is not stabilised every one will get l____d , including india , pakistan, iran.presently india is doing salma dam , biggest irrigation project , it has almost done hairatn kabul transmission line , i was a sub contractor of KEC India , a small one although .pakistan has done torkham jalalabad road , india is also doing zaranj dilaram road which if security is guaranteed will replace karachi as main afghan transit port with chah bahar iran.
lets see what happens.
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 19, 2008 06:11 am
i would add that Afghanistan was really destroyed by USA and its subsidiary cheap vassal tinpot zia , and that dirty war that he waged in name of jihad for his own agenda.jimmy carter that clown initiated the policy long before the soviets arrived from late 1978.off course later everyone played the role in afghanistan's destruction once the proxy war started after 1992,allincl india,pakistan,iran,russia,USA above all.
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 19, 2008 06:11 am
i would add that Afghanistan was really destroyed by USA and its subsidiary cheap vassal tinpot zia , and that dirty war that he waged in name of jihad for his own agenda.jimmy carter that clown initiated the policy long before the soviets arrived from late 1978.off course later everyone played the role in afghanistan's destruction once the proxy war started after 1992,allincl india,pakistan,iran,russia,USA above all.
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 19, 2008 06:08 am
i would add that Afghanistan was really destroyed by USA and its subsidiary cheap vassal tinpot zia , and that dirty war that he waged in name of jihad for his own agenda.jimmy carter that clown initiated the policy long before the soviets arrived from late 1978.off course later everyone played the role in afghanistan's destruction once the proxy war started after 1992,allincl india,pakistan,iran,russia,USA above all.
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 19, 2008 06:05 am
in my opinion Sivaji was the greatest leader of Hindu India.He removed that inferiority complex that Hindus had developed in military terms.Interestingly he was a vassal of a Shia Muslim state and opposed Aurangzeb when he destroyed that Shia Muslim state.The Sikhs also paid a major role but the Mughal Empire was basically destroyed by the Marathas.Nadir Shah and Abdali later used this to further destroy the Mughals.
New US Strategy Needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan
Muslim question in Indo-Pak subcontinent was unique. In the Middle East or North Africa or in Central and West Asia the complications were never as severe as in Indo-Pak. Initially the Muslims of Turco-Persian descent dominated the region for some 650 years. During this period solid Muslim majorities were created in the north west and the eastern part of the sub-continent. In the late seventeenth century two indigenous communities challenged the Muslims but pluralistic Mughal state. These were the Marathas in the south west and the Sikhs in the north west, the former being a more formidable challenge and the latter being a less formidable challenge, at least during the first one hundred years. The Marathas launched a low intensity war which was much later copied in Spain (1808-14), in Vietnam and Afghanistan etc. The Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb who may be compared to USSR's Brezhnev tried to crush the Maratha insurgency employing all the diplomatic political and military expedients for some fifty years (1660-1707) but failed. The study of this period is extremely thought-provoking. Divide and rule was as craftily followed by Aurangzeb as the British did in the post-1757 period. Many Marathas were ennobled and there were four times more Hindu Maratha nobles in the Mughal Empire than total of all Muslim nobles from present Pakistan! Aurangzeb's policy only partially succeeded; and militarily the Marathas were not crushed. Aurangzeb died without having succeeded in suppressing the Marathas. The Maratha insurgency was a decisive event in Indo-Pak history! Many Hindus in today's India condemn the Marathas as predators and robbers while history text books in Pakistan speak about the Mughal's fighting the Marathas as if Aurangzeb was a President of Pakistan or as if his army was from Jhelum or Attock or Sargodha or Chakwal! (The areas from where the predominantly Punjabi Muslim Pakistan Army is recruited). Both the attitudes are fallacious. Without Sivaji's brilliant generalship the Hindu would never have regained that enigmatic but absolutely crucial feeling of confidence and resolution which was shattered when the Turk Muslims defeated the Hindu Rajputs at the Second Battle of Tarain in 1192. The Muslim Turk emerged victorious at Tarain not because it was inevitable or because the Hindu Rajput was less brave but because the Turkish tactics were dynamic and unorthodox. Just one year earlier the Hindu Rajputs at the same place had inflicted a severe defeat on the same Turkish Muhammad Ghori. 1192 marked the beginning of an era in which the Hindus were slowly but convincingly overtaken and overwhelmed by a subtle but powerful feeling that the Muslim Turks were bound to win. This change in attitude was not sudden but dated from 1192 just like the British psychological ascendancy took off in 1757 or 1764. By 1235 this Hindu inferiority complex which was only a temporary feeling in 1192 became a firmly ingrained and as what the psychologists call internalized feeling! The Hindus were recruited in the army by the initially 2 or 4% Muslim Turks who permanently settled in North India but the feeling that the Muslim Turk was invincible was overwhelming! By 1660 when Aurangzeb was fighting the Maratha a large part of his army was Hindus recruited from the Gangetic plain but the Hindu was shy of facing the Muslim Mughal on the battlefield. If we date the Hindu inferiority complex from 1235 and draw a straight unbroken line till 1660, the total period in years comes to 425 years. Thus when Shivaji started his titanic struggle he was challenging 425 years of psychological ascendancy firmly ingrained in the Hindu head. An illogical and irrational but formidable and overwhelming inferiority complex! Just like the one which plagued all Indians whether Muslim, Hindu or Sikh in relation to the British from 1764 till at least 1905 or even till 1919 or 1941! Muslim historians taunt Sivaji for not facing the Mughals in a conventional battle, while forgetting that Sivaji was carrying 425 years burden on his shoulders! Pakistani Muslims identify with the Mughals forgetting that in 1680 ethnically at least most of the races inhabiting present Pakistan were of little consequence to Aurangzeb by virtue of representation in the Mughal army or the nobility! There were more Hindu Rajputs in Aurangzeb's army than Muslims from the area between Chenab and Jhelum Rivers (the present area from where some 75% of Pakistan Army is recruited). Thus Sivaji by effectively fighting the Mughals in Deccan and Maharashtra from around 1660 to 1680 shattered at least partially a myth of inferiority which had plagued the 80% Hindu majority to a devastating state of political and military docility timidity and inertia! Sivaji's insurgency became institutionalised and was carried on by his descendants with greater success. Sivaji was the undoubted father of Hindu military resurgence in India! Someone may feel that we have drifted from the main course. This is not true because we are examining the origins of modern Indo-Pak.
The Mughal Empire's apparent decline started in 1707 but the foundations of this decline were laid by Sivaji. In the years 1707-1757 the Marathas steadily expanded their territory. The Mughals having failed to destroy them had tacitly acknowledged their de facto existence as a power to be reckoned with. Thus the Marathas assisted the great Mughal noble Syed Hussain Ali of Barha in his advance to Delhi by contributing 11,000 soldiers arriving at the imperial city on 16 February 1719 as allies! The Sayyid and his brother Abdullah deposed the Mughal King on 28 February! In 1728 these indomitable soldiers of fortune humbled the so-called greatest Muslim General in India i.e. the Nizam of Hyderabad at Palkhad (11 March 1728)! In March 1737 they raided Delhi but returned without entering the city since they did not want to get involved in a conventional battle. However, like the Afghans did many years later, they looted the suburbs! In 1760 they defeated the Nizam decisively at Udgir (3 February 1760). It is interesting to note that the Mughal-Maratha conflict was not a Hindu-Muslim contest as many subsequent religiously biased historians portray. Outside their Maratha indigenous territory the Marathas were predators and did not distinguish between Hindu or Muslim. Just like the Afghans once they crossed the Khyber Pass or the Indus River! Many Hindus formed part of the Mughal Army while many Muslims fought in the Maratha Army. These included Hindustani Muslims, Deccani Muslims, Arabs, Baluch, Pathans, Rajputs etc. At Udgir the principal Maratha General was a Muslim, Ibrahim Gardi! Communalism as a phenomena appeared only in the post-1858 era as a direct result of British policies. Religion was not the issue, the issue was power, movable wealth and thus Delhi was looted by equal fervour by Iranian Muslims, Afghan Muslims, Hindustani Pathan Muslims and the Hindu Marathas! This fact is never taught in the schools and colleges at least in Pakistan. About India, may be an Indian can make us wiser, but I am sure that at least the fact that Marathas of the post-Sivaji period were looting both Hindus and Muslims with equal fervour must he being suppressed or at least down played or simply skipped!
In 1751 the Muslim ruler of Oudh Nawab Vizir Safdar Jang requested Maratha help against the predatory Muslim Hindustani Pathans of Rohailkhand and Farkhabad who had gloriously plundered the culturally and predominantly Muslim dominated cities of Allahabad and Lucknow. The Marathas readily assisted the Muslim Nawab and defeated the Pathans, occupied and looted the Pathan tracts of Rohailkhand and Farkhabad and killed all combatants they could find! For this excellent service the Muslim ruler of Oudh allowed them to keep half of the Bangash Pathan territory in the Upper Doab area of UP! Where is any trace of ideology or the Two Nation Theory in all these proceedings? Many Pakistani historians assert that Hindus and Muslims in India were two nations since 711-A.D! In 1756 Ahmed Shah Abdali who was five years later hailed as saviour of Muslims in India invaded India and plundered Muslim Delhi and Hindu Muttra! The Mughal Empire by this time was militarily an almost dead entity! Thus in 1758 the Mughal paymaster general Safdar Jang was forced to invite the Marathas to Delhi to save Delhi from being again looted by the Muslim Afghans! The situation was ironic i.e. both Muslim Afghans and Hindu Marathas were basically predators! The only difference being that the Afghans were more course and uncouth while the Marathas were a little more refined, but only relatively! By 1760 the same Muslim state Oudh which had requested the Marathas to destroy the Rohailkhand and Upper Doab Hindustani Muslim Pathans in 1751 now viewed the Marathas as a threat to their state and decided to ally with the hated Sunni Muslim Afghan and the Sunni Muslim Rohailkhand and Upper Doab Hindustani Muslim Pathan! The Nawab of Oudh was a Shia Persian speaking Hindustani Muslim! Responding to the Mughal SOS call the Marathas who may be compared to the Germanic or Slav mercenary soldiers of the declining Roman Empire moved north with a large army, marching through Delhi in a more civilised manner than the Afghans, occupied Punjab in April 1758. Punjab till then had been occupied by Ahmad Shah's son as governor. The Afghans had systematically looted this Muslim majority province ever since they had occupied it and were rightly hated by the Punjabi Muslims and the Mughal nobility! This fact is not taught in any school or college in Pakistan! But thank God some Punjabi Muslim poets have done a great service to the cause of Pakistan's otherwise highly distorted history by having left certain immortal verses composed in Punjabi poetry! These verses tell the story of the sufferings of the previously highly prosperous people of Punjab both Hindu and Muslim! The Sikhs were hated by the Afghans since they used to rob the Afghans of the booty of looted Delhi once the Afghans used to return to Afghanistan! Once the Marathas captured Punjab i.e. the area till Indus river Ahmad Shah raised the slogan "Islam in danger" and invaded India, crossing the Indus in August 1759. The Marathas withdrew from Punjab and a long campaign followed which is outside the scope of this essay. However in brief the Marathas were defeated by the combined Afghan - Hindustani Pathan -Oudh Muslim + Hindu army at the famous Battle of Panipat in January 1761. Victory of the Afghans at Panipat was indecisive since the bulk of Afghan soldiery was interested in booty and so they frustrated Ahmad Shah's desire to establish an empire in Delhi! Thus after Ahmad Shah again sacked Delhi on 22 March 1761 (a fact which is not taught in any Pakistani school or college) following Panipat his army was close to a muting, fed up with the hot Indian summer, and anxious to carry all the booty they had collected at Panipat and at Delhi! Ahmad Shah was thus forced to return to Afghanistan leaving a Hindustani Muslim Pathan Najib Khan as his agent at Delhi! The Sikhs raided Ahmad Shah Abdali's heavy baggaged army on the way back to Afghanistan!
A Muslim poet of Delhi complimented them for doing so!
" What is the harm if one robber robs another! "
Within ten years of Panipat the Marathas again entered Delhi in 1772 while escorting the Mughal Emperor Shah Alam. From 1785 onwards the Maratha influence was again paramount at Delhi. In 1788 Delhi was again looted by the Saharanpur Hindustani Muslim Pathan Ghulam Qadir Khan Rohilla, who raped many Mughal females, made the Mughal King Shah Alam sing like a prostitute and finally blinded the King! The Marathas occupied Delhi in 1788 and defeated and executed the tyrannical predator Ghulam Qadir Khan on 03 March 1789 following a battle in which they had defeated him in December 1788. From 1789 onwards the Mughal Emperors new custodian was Sindhia, his Hindu Maratha rescuer who protected the Mughal King and also gave him a respectable retainer of Rs 600,000/- an year. The same situation continued till September 1803 when the Marathas lost Delhi to the forces of the English East India Company and the Mughal King became the pensioner of the East India company while being recognised as the de jure Emperor of India just like the Marathas did. The same status continued till 1857 when the great rebellion of 1857 took place.
It may be noted that the advent of the European factor in 18th century was the major factor which complicated the whole state of affairs. Hypothetically speaking if the Europeans, British, French or Portuguese may not have become a major political force in India there may have been no complications about sovereignty and legitimacy in India. The cardinal trend in 1757 was emergence of three different power blocks i.e. the indigenous Marathas, the Northern Muslim Afghan predators and the Opportunist ex-Mughal governors of Oudh and Hyderabad, to which Hyder Ali of Mysore who emerged as a force to be reckoned with around 1770. Out of these the most inherent but stable was the Marathas followed by the Afghans whose ambitions were not anything like empire building but merely carrying away movable wealth. If we take the European factor out then most probably the issue of political supremacy may have been settled by sword leading most probably to the following scenario"-
a. A Hindu Maratha block in Central Western and the Western Gangetic plains.
b. A Muslim block in the north and east in Bengal, Bihar and Oudh.
c. Another Muslim block in the south comprising Hyderabad, Mysore or Hyderabad or Mysore terminating any of the either two.
d. Afghan domination west of Indus and a Sikh dominated state between Indus and Sutlej.
It is natural that the above mentioned situation would have led to another struggle in which the military factor would have decided the issue but the result at best would have been a draw and not a Muslim dominated political system as had been the case earlier since 1192.
The above situation was highly unlikely since the Europeans were all set to attempt to colonize and politically dominate India as was apparent in 1757 by the simple observable facts of their naval and military presence at Madras, Bombay, Goa etc.
Posted by
pavocavalry
Mar 19, 2008 05:48 am
wish to quote from my article on indian muslim politics here about the Hindu Muslim question :--Muslim question in Indo-Pak subcontinent was unique. In the Middle East or North Africa or in Central and West Asia the complications were never as severe as in Indo-Pak. Initially the Muslims of Turco-Persian descent dominated the region for some 650 years. During this period solid Muslim majorities were created in the north west and the eastern part of the sub-continent. In the late seventeenth century two indigenous communities challenged the Muslims but pluralistic Mughal state. These were the Marathas in the south west and the Sikhs in the north west, the former being a more formidable challenge and the latter being a less formidable challenge, at least during the first one hundred years. The Marathas launched a low intensity war which was much later copied in Spain (1808-14), in Vietnam and Afghanistan etc. The Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb who may be compared to USSR's Brezhnev tried to crush the Maratha insurgency employing all the diplomatic political and military expedients for some fifty years (1660-1707) but failed. The study of this period is extremely thought-provoking. Divide and rule was as craftily followed by Aurangzeb as the British did in the post-1757 period. Many Marathas were ennobled and there were four times more Hindu Maratha nobles in the Mughal Empire than total of all Muslim nobles from present Pakistan! Aurangzeb's policy only partially succeeded; and militarily the Marathas were not crushed. Aurangzeb died without having succeeded in suppressing the Marathas. The Maratha insurgency was a decisive event in Indo-Pak history! Many Hindus in today's India condemn the Marathas as predators and robbers while history text books in Pakistan speak about the Mughal's fighting the Marathas as if Aurangzeb was a President of Pakistan or as if his army was from Jhelum or Attock or Sargodha or Chakwal! (The areas from where the predominantly Punjabi Muslim Pakistan Army is recruited). Both the attitudes are fallacious. Without Sivaji's brilliant generalship the Hindu would never have regained that enigmatic but absolutely crucial feeling of confidence and resolution which was shattered when the Turk Muslims defeated the Hindu Rajputs at the Second Battle of Tarain in 1192. The Muslim Turk emerged victorious at Tarain not because it was inevitable or because the Hindu Rajput was less brave but because the Turkish tactics were dynamic and unorthodox. Just one year earlier the Hindu Rajputs at the same place had inflicted a severe defeat on the same Turkish Muhammad Ghori. 1192 marked the beginning of an era in which the Hindus were slowly but convincingly overtaken and overwhelmed by a subtle but powerful feeling that the Muslim Turks were bound to win. This change in attitude was not sudden but dated from 1192 just like the British psychological ascendancy took off in 1757 or 1764. By 1235 this Hindu inferiority complex which was only a temporary feeling in 1192 became a firmly ingrained and as what the psychologists call internalized feeling! The Hindus were recruited in the army by the initially 2 or 4% Muslim Turks who permanently settled in North India but the feeling that the Muslim Turk was invincible was overwhelming! By 1660 when Aurangzeb was fighting the Maratha a large part of his army was Hindus recruited from the Gangetic plain but the Hindu was shy of facing the Muslim Mughal on the battlefield. If we date the Hindu inferiority complex from 1235 and draw a straight unbroken line till 1660, the total period in years comes to 425 years. Thus when Shivaji started his titanic struggle he was challenging 425 years of psychological ascendancy firmly ingrained in the Hindu head. An illogical and irrational but formidable and overwhelming inferiority complex! Just like the one which plagued all Indians whether Muslim, Hindu or Sikh in relation to the British from 1764 till at least 1905 or even till 1919 or 1941! Muslim historians taunt Sivaji for not facing the Mughals in a conventional battle, while forgetting that Sivaji was carrying 425 years burden on his shoulders! Pakistani Muslims identify with the Mughals forgetting that in 1680 ethnically at least most of the races inhabiting present Pakistan were of little consequence to Aurangzeb by virtue of representation in the Mughal army or the nobility! There were more Hindu Rajputs in Aurangzeb's army than Muslims from the area between Chenab and Jhelum Rivers (the present area from where some 75% of Pakistan Army is recruited). Thus Sivaji by effectively fighting the Mughals in Deccan and Maharashtra from around 1660 to 1680 shattered at least partially a myth of inferiority which had plagued the 80% Hindu majority to a devastating state of political and military docility timidity and inertia! Sivaji's insurgency became institutionalised and was carried on by his descendants with greater success. Sivaji was the undoubted father of Hindu military resurgence in India! Someone may feel that we have drifted from the main course. This is not true because we are examining the origins of modern Indo-Pak.
The Mughal Empire's apparent decline started in 1707 but the foundations of this decline were laid by Sivaji. In the years 1707-1757 the Marathas steadily expanded their territory. The Mughals having failed to destroy them had tacitly acknowledged their de facto existence as a power to be reckoned with. Thus the Marathas assisted the great Mughal noble Syed Hussain Ali of Barha in his advance to Delhi by contributing 11,000 soldiers arriving at the imperial city on 16 February 1719 as allies! The Sayyid and his brother Abdullah deposed the Mughal King on 28 February! In 1728 these indomitable soldiers of fortune humbled the so-called greatest Muslim General in India i.e. the Nizam of Hyderabad at Palkhad (11 March 1728)! In March 1737 they raided Delhi but returned without entering the city since they did not want to get involved in a conventional battle. However, like the Afghans did many years later, they looted the suburbs! In 1760 they defeated the Nizam decisively at Udgir (3 February 1760). It is interesting to note that the Mughal-Maratha conflict was not a Hindu-Muslim contest as many subsequent religiously biased historians portray. Outside their Maratha indigenous territory the Marathas were predators and did not distinguish between Hindu or Muslim. Just like the Afghans once they crossed the Khyber Pass or the Indus River! Many Hindus formed part of the Mughal Army while many Muslims fought in the Maratha Army. These included Hindustani Muslims, Deccani Muslims, Arabs, Baluch, Pathans, Rajputs etc. At Udgir the principal Maratha General was a Muslim, Ibrahim Gardi! Communalism as a phenomena appeared only in the post-1858 era as a direct result of British policies. Religion was not the issue, the issue was power, movable wealth and thus Delhi was looted by equal fervour by Iranian Muslims, Afghan Muslims, Hindustani Pathan Muslims and the Hindu Marathas! This fact is never taught in the schools and colleges at least in Pakistan. About India, may be an Indian can make us wiser, but I am sure that at least the fact that Marathas of the post-Sivaji period were looting both Hindus and Muslims with equal fervour must he being suppressed or at least down played or simply skipped!
In 1751 the Muslim ruler of Oudh Nawab Vizir Safdar Jang requested Maratha help against the predatory Muslim Hindustani Pathans of Rohailkhand and Farkhabad who had gloriously plundered the culturally and predominantly Muslim dominated cities of Allahabad and Lucknow. The Marathas readily assisted the Muslim Nawab and defeated the Pathans, occupied and looted the Pathan tracts of Rohailkhand and Farkhabad and killed all combatants they could find! For this excellent service the Muslim ruler of Oudh allowed them to keep half of the Bangash Pathan territory in the Upper Doab area of UP! Where is any trace of ideology or the Two Nation Theory in all these proceedings? Many Pakistani historians assert that Hindus and Muslims in India were two nations since 711-A.D! In 1756 Ahmed Shah Abdali who was five years later hailed as saviour of Muslims in India invaded India and plundered Muslim Delhi and Hindu Muttra! The Mughal Empire by this time was militarily an almost dead entity! Thus in 1758 the Mughal paymaster general Safdar Jang was forced to invite the Marathas to Delhi to save Delhi from being again looted by the Muslim Afghans! The situation was ironic i.e. both Muslim Afghans and Hindu Marathas were basically predators! The only difference being that the Afghans were more course and uncouth while the Marathas were a little more refined, but only relatively! By 1760 the same Muslim state Oudh which had requested the Marathas to destroy the Rohailkhand and Upper Doab Hindustani Muslim Pathans in 1751 now viewed the Marathas as a threat to their state and decided to ally with the hated Sunni Muslim Afghan and the Sunni Muslim Rohailkhand and Upper Doab Hindustani Muslim Pathan! The Nawab of Oudh was a Shia Persian speaking Hindustani Muslim! Responding to the Mughal SOS call the Marathas who may be compared to the Germanic or Slav mercenary soldiers of the declining Roman Empire moved north with a large army, marching through Delhi in a more civilised manner than the Afghans, occupied Punjab in April 1758. Punjab till then had been occupied by Ahmad Shah's son as governor. The Afghans had systematically looted this Muslim majority province ever since they had occupied it and were rightly hated by the Punjabi Muslims and the Mughal nobility! This fact is not taught in any school or college in Pakistan! But thank God some Punjabi Muslim poets have done a great service to the cause of Pakistan's otherwise highly distorted history by having left certain immortal verses composed in Punjabi poetry! These verses tell the story of the sufferings of the previously highly prosperous people of Punjab both Hindu and Muslim! The Sikhs were hated by the Afghans since they used to rob the Afghans of the booty of looted Delhi once the Afghans used to return to Afghanistan! Once the Marathas captured Punjab i.e. the area till Indus river Ahmad Shah raised the slogan "Islam in danger" and invaded India, crossing the Indus in August 1759. The Marathas withdrew from Punjab and a long campaign followed which is outside the scope of this essay. However in brief the Marathas were defeated by the combined Afghan - Hindustani Pathan -Oudh Muslim + Hindu army at the famous Battle of Panipat in January 1761. Victory of the Afghans at Panipat was indecisive since the bulk of Afghan soldiery was interested in booty and so they frustrated Ahmad Shah's desire to establish an empire in Delhi! Thus after Ahmad Shah again sacked Delhi on 22 March 1761 (a fact which is not taught in any Pakistani school or college) following Panipat his army was close to a muting, fed up with the hot Indian summer, and anxious to carry all the booty they had collected at Panipat and at Delhi! Ahmad Shah was thus forced to return to Afghanistan leaving a Hindustani Muslim Pathan Najib Khan as his agent at Delhi! The Sikhs raided Ahmad Shah Abdali's heavy baggaged army on the way back to Afghanistan!
A Muslim poet of Delhi complimented them for doing so!
" What is the harm if one robber robs another! "
Within ten years of Panipat the Marathas again entered Delhi in 1772 while escorting the Mughal Emperor Shah Alam. From 1785 onwards the Maratha influence was again paramount at Delhi. In 1788 Delhi was again looted by the Saharanpur Hindustani Muslim Pathan Ghulam Qadir Khan Rohilla, who raped many Mughal females, made the Mughal King Shah Alam sing like a prostitute and finally blinded the King! The Marathas occupied Delhi in 1788 and defeated and executed the tyrannical predator Ghulam Qadir Khan on 03 March 1789 following a battle in which they had defeated him in December 1788. From 1789 onwards the Mughal Emperors new custodian was Sindhia, his Hindu Maratha rescuer who protected the Mughal King and also gave him a respectable retainer of Rs 600,000/- an year. The same situation continued till September 1803 when the Marathas lost Delhi to the forces of the English East India Company and the Mughal King became the pensioner of the East India company while being recognised as the de jure Emperor of India just like the Marathas did. The same status continued till 1857 when the great rebellion of 1857 took place.
It may be noted that the advent of the European factor in 18th century was the major factor which complicated the whole state of affairs. Hypothetically speaking if the Europeans, British, French or Portuguese may not have become a major political force in India there may have been no complications about sovereignty and legitimacy in India. The cardinal trend in 1757 was emergence of three different power blocks i.e. the indigenous Marathas, the Northern Muslim Afghan predators and the Opportunist ex-Mughal governors of Oudh and Hyderabad, to which Hyder Ali of Mysore who emerged as a force to be reckoned with around 1770. Out of these the most inherent but stable was the Marathas followed by the Afghans whose ambitions were not anything like empire building but merely carrying away movable wealth. If we take the European factor out then most probably the issue of political supremacy may have been settled by sword leading most probably to the following scenario"-
a. A Hindu Maratha block in Central Western and the Western Gangetic plains.
b. A Muslim block in the north and east in Bengal, Bihar and Oudh.
c. Another Muslim block in the south comprising Hyderabad, Mysore or Hyderabad or Mysore terminating any of the either two.
d. Afghan domination west of Indus and a Sikh dominated state between Indus and Sutlej.
It is natural that the above mentioned situation would have led to another struggle in which the military factor would have decided the issue but the result at best would have been a draw and not a Muslim dominated political system as had been the case earlier since 1192.
The above situation was highly unlikely since the Europeans were all set to attempt to colonize and politically dominate India as was apparent in 1757 by the simple observable facts of their naval and military presence at Madras, Bombay, Goa etc.
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