The God Delusion .... btw, has anyone noticed at the number of "versions" of the "same" there are?? ..... surely only one can be right? no? ..... if so, by what criteria? ....

.....then again we are in the realm of fairytales so I wouldn't hold my breath for a logical answer any time soon! .... I only hope God is enjoying his own sadistic joke!!

The God Delusion Re: # 33; Rabia

you make a good point in the second para of your post. The "God of Religion" as perceived by muslims/christians/jews and the "God of the Philosopher/Scientist" are two very distinct entities .... lightyears apart from one another. When one denies the existence of God, one rejects the "God of Religion" ... which is an exclusive concept.

I wonder what quin or other sufis etc would think about this "exclusive" nature of the God he is so in love with?? It is very clear from the "Book" as to what that "God" wants its followers to do ... trying to give it a "fuzzy warm feeling of love" is a state of denial at its best ... less said the better on that!

I'd also like to quote another atheistic scientist (since Dawkins has been thought to be "a biologist commenting on the 'wrong subject'"! ... It is none other than Albert Einstein:

“It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems.”

(Albert Einstein, 1947; from Banesh Hoffmann, Albert Einstein Creator and Rebel, New York: New American Library, 1972, p. 95.)


“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.… This is a somewhat new kind of religion.”

(Albert Einstein, in a letter to Hans Muehsam, March 30, 1954; Einstein Archive 38-434; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 218.)



“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.”

(Albert Einstein, upon being asked if he believed in God by Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the Institutional Synagogue, New York, April 24, 1921, published in the New York Times, April 25, 1929)

.................................

For someone to suggest that we are talking about the "same .. same" God as the God of Religion is a fallacy and quite frankly stupidity of the highest order!!

Like I said before, the two concepts are lightyears apart!! ... and Naqshbandi sahib has captured the soul of the "interventionist God" by acknowledging that "no two religious philosophies are the same" ... that would be absurd. One "believes" in one by rejecting (conciously or sub-conciously) the other! ... can't do "both" together .... that'd be just absurd!!

as for true "sufism" .... not the piri/muridi type but the "true" version ... it is nothing but pantheism (or sexed up atheism!) .... with all the "overflowing love" attempting to smother others (whether they want to be smothered or not!) ... they just din't/don't have the opportunity/courage to say it out loud!!

...............................

as for hamidm sahib's post .... LOL sir! some of us are also waiting for the new episode in the al-lah/Gabby/mo saga too ... in your own time of course! .... I remembered Ghalib whilst reading the first para from Genesis (hamidm version) ...

"na tha kuchh tau khuda tha, kuchh na hota tau khuda hota;
daboya mujh ko honey ne, na hota mein tau keya hota".

take care and Khuda Hafiz all

The God Delusion Re: # 5

... and the last line was addressed to TaureanKhan and not quin

apologies again

The God Delusion Correction ... that was

.... Rumi-esque ..... (not Runi)

apologies

The God Delusion Hi Taurean ... long time man!

I just came back to leave you guys with a few more beautiful quotations by my "spiritual" mentor Professor Dawkins (a Chair at Oxford is nothing to be sneezed at I reckon!) He says (quite appropriate here):

"If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed, if ludicrous and degrading to women, sexual promises, and is it any wonder that naïve and frustrated young men are clamouring to be selected for suicide missions?"

On the 'God' explanation! he says:

"I don't think God is an explanation at all. It's simply redescribing the problem.
We are trying to understand how we have got a complicated world, and we have an explanation in terms of a slightly simpler world, and we explain that in terms of a slightly simpler world and it all hangs together down to an ultimately simple world.
Now, God is not an explanation of that kind. God himself cannot be simple if he has power to do all the things he is supposed to do."

and as far as the ongoing 'suffering' in this world that gets the juices flowing for many ... including my Runi-esque brethren, here is what goes on in HIS universe;

"The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference."

I just thought a "recap" for quin sahib was in order ....

... Khuda Hafiz Taurean, Eklavya and Quin .... btw quin, regarding your comment about not having likeminded "pakhtoon" company, good riddance to old rubbish my friend ... their loss, definitely NOT yours! though I am hoping for a compromise but it takes time! (take it from me!)

The God Delusion [[When the true spirit of religion (the pain and anguish which you can see in every Sacred text) get so perverted, when the man become devil incarnate in the hands of religion, when the earth is turned into hell, ....]]

this IS the "true spirit" of religion .... any religion but specially the ones that revere "death more than life" ... when the suiciders claims being hurt "less than a gnat's bite ... before they take their final journey to the promised gardens with rivers of milk and honey ... amongst other things" ..... wake up and smell the coffee quin .... this has been going on since time immemorial .... you have only just caught up with the memo!

September Morning Re: # 202; Bhatti sahib

kuchh khuda da khauf karo paaji! why would I do something like that .... look, perhaps I didn't phrase it well ... I have a lot of questions on this subject and it is probably best we discuss this after I return next week (away at present) .... perhaps on UP

as for the "impartial" bit ... it WAS intended as perceived!! .. applies to us all to a greater or lesser extent!

September Morning Re: # 197

.... will return later to check your responses ... thanks in advance

September Morning Re: # 187; hamidm and Bhatti sahiban

Salaam-e-masnoon hazaraat!

sorry to butt in ... private conversations and all that .... the "ahmedi mas'ala" aside, I still haven't heard a consensus on the "shiites/Ismailis" despite my endeavours to achieve one through Chowk (my mistake!) .... Now if one is to regard Ahmedis non-muslim (as Bhatti sahib insists from time to time), I'd like him to clarify his poisition on the latter group mentioned above ... and if they ARE muslims (which I don't personally begrudge either group), then by what criteria? ... since the fundamental differences are immense from mainstream Sunni Islam (in both). .... I have listed those "differences" many a times here before ... and being a well-read and "impartial" student of history, Bhatti sahib doesn't need education on them anyway.

As for the mullah with bad breath at you nikah ... much better at the registry office I reckon .... completely secular and no hang ups!

Honor Killings in Babakot Re: # 19; quin

like I said before, "Quranism" is the newfound growth industry amongst apologetics for Islam right now .... when the flaws are presented in B & W, the cop outs such as "interpretational differences" and other "fuzzy thinking touchy feely stuff" comes out as an excuse ....

.... quin ... call it "your islam/Quran" all you like ... and I for one will defend the right of anyone wanting to do that for personal consolation etc .... that's fair enough

... problem is we are fighting a political ideology here .... it's always been political! my debate with you is pure semantics but in reality I know what it means to you; same way it might mean something to me too .... but you are trying to present a "theological" argument without taking responsibility for the "other stuff" that goes on justified by the very book you hold so dear! and that's where the problem lies .... either "defend" your argument or don't put it forward to further you cause in the first place!

like I said before, will have a proper discussion about this in a couple of weeks .... can't maintain an un-interrupted presence here right now ... so

Khuda Hafiz for now

US Commando Strike in Waziristan Re: # 175; Pardesi
[[so effective (in Iraq/Anbar region) and top secret that he can not talk about it for long long time. Has any one heard about these new techniques?]]

they are "top secret" and you expect someone at Chowk to have heard about them??

Dr Afia Siddiqui\'s Case Re: # 34
....do come in swings ...

apologies

Dr Afia Siddiqui\'s Case Re: # 33; majumdar

it only took ONE generation under Zia to get us where we are now .... so, unless the process starts with some sincerity, nothing would happen .... ever!

second thing is, the brotherhood were crushed in early 1980s ... its been more than 2 decades and generally Syrinas are quite happy with their 'improved life-styles' brought about by less Islam in their outlooks overall!

and yes I agree, these things do come have swings and roundabouts ... but you can't expect a humble cogwheel such as myself to eliminate religion!! I'd like to, but unfortunately some 'weaker souls' do need their fairytales to help them sleep at night! .... I am speaking of 'containing' this monster ... at least in our lifetime

Dr Afia Siddiqui\'s Case Re: # 30; rabia

unfortunately chowk is a forum where a 'select few' "English-speaking" Pakistanis, with the help of expats of similar backgrounds, discuss matters they have very little insight in. They claim to represent them somehow when the reality on the ground is very different ..... it is reminiscent of many of our Oxford/Cambridge/Harvard educated leaders ... who have nothing in common with the masses, yet feel qualified to render solutions at the drop of a hat

and the Hafiz Asad solution did work!! Long live the name of a TRUE "Ameer-ul-Momineen" of his times!!

Dr Afia Siddiqui\'s Case Re: # 29; majumdar sahib

I made good friends with someone in Sydney recently ... he is from that part of the world and until his arrival in Australia lived in a 'compound' his family/extended fam shared! ... managed to get away based upon some uni education/scholarship etc .... anyhow, what he said was that it was not until he arrived in a completely different culture (the west) that he knew anything about how the outside world lived! and this is from a uni educated person.

Needless to say, he wasn't even exposed to any "alternative" viewpoint until then .... now that he is, he feels and thinks very differently ... after having analysed the 'issues' from a distance for a few years .... that is the tragedy sir!

people in that part are only ever given the one option .... as for the alternative, they know nothing about ... irony is, this is regarded as the "people's will"!! how can it be when they have no decent opportunities for education, interaction with others, drinking/running water and "knowledge"; by knowledge I don't mean what one learns at school/uni but an "insight" into what life is about and what different options they may have .... this is taken to be "their life-style" that has to be maintained at all cost!! ... and that is called "their proud culture"; what's to be proud of in that exactly? ... just saying I am proud of something about myself doesn't add any substance to that pride!

please I urge all to give some consideration to the millions of suffering souls ... who'll continue to suffer ... be it in the hands of the Pakistanis, Americans, Taliban and whoever else ..... a complete turn around is required and in this process the Pakistanis have to play their part to set things right and not make them worse ... also, I strongly believe that without the basic know-how of what the various options there are available in the world, the so-called facade of democracy cannot and will not work in Pakistan ... people have become, rightly or wrongly,... sigle-minded in their thinking .... it has become the cultural norm to "blame the other" for one's shortcomings .... we either sort this menatlity out or perish as anything of significance in history ... simple!

My Encounter with Ahmed Faraz Re: # 1; Naqsh

I think I saw Zeemax say somewhere that Faraz was his teacher at Peshawar Uni ... small world!

... needless to say I loved his poetry and met him once at a Mushaira in Sydney .... I only ever knew him as a poet and that's good enough for me!