Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? Posted by hamidm2

Sorry to borrow this board for another discussion.

"The light bulb went on"

Let me formulate your contention. Just as parents are obligated to take care of their children when they are young, so must children be required to take care of parents in their old age.

To start with let me just talk about my dad and myself. Growing up, when ever this subject would come up, he would half jokingly say, “God forbid I am ever dependent on you”. But I for myself am not joking at all when I say that I would not like to be dependent on any one at all. Fact of the matter is that I would prefer to be dead then be dependent on my kids. If I get disabled, still I would prefer a care facility that I paid for, to obligatory care from my children. Yes if they so desire to spend time with me because I am about to go that would be much appreciated but without obligation.

Like I said, care giving to children is obligatory and your children repay that debt by taking care of their children better then the care you gave them. But when you talk about care of parents, you run smack into a higher value, which is freedom. Empty nesters do not long to repopulate their nests, they choose to move on to a life of contemplation, of hobbies, of fulfilling desires beyond material goods.

But here is where the worlds of East and West collide. In a joint family system both the patriarch and the matriarch are not seeking care; they are more interested in hanging on to their fiefdom as long as possible. Dad knows that so long as he is paying the bills he is in charge, this he extends through what ever method till such time that he has no choice and then he retreats into his shell. Mom on the other hand extends her control through grown sons and is usually able to maintain her hegemony a lot more successfully. Her adaptation abilities to changing circumstances are much better. Obligation, guilt, indebtedness are all brought upon the kids to comply which they do with requisite resentment and ill will. Society determines successful life as the one where the man and woman exercised complete power over their household till the very end.

Attack in Mohmand #197 Posted by masadi

"a sense of justice (that is still superior to the white man's "justice")"

Do you mind elaborating on this superior system of justice that you are referring to.

Attack in Mohmand #172 Posted by HP

“He has a clear understanding of who the taliban and the tribal area jihadis are and I doubt that you can find any post by him anywhere on this site supporting them.”


Read his #130 which I was specifically responding to. If that is not a call to arms and getting Pakistan involved in an entirely unnecessary war then I don’t know what is. If he or anybody else has so much bluster then rather then swaying other innocents they should just go and do it themselves.

Attack in Mohmand 150 Posted by HP

HP,

I think your onslaught is entirely uncalled for. Rather then matching you with the tone and tenor of your tirade I would refer to my post # 89 which would clarify my position. Yes, if Masadi, Zeemax etc. who keep calling for, wishing for and writing about the merit of Jihad then rather then them poisoning young minds I would rather they lead by example.

Attack in Mohmand #134 Posted by hamidm2

“tehsin khanzeer”

Hamid my dear friend of forty years! You have every right to refer to me as khanzeer, as idiot, a hole and whatever else comes into your head. But in the process of exercising this right on Chowk, everybody else here also feels that they have earned this right as well. People with whom I have never interacted feel that they can call me names just because they see you doing it, without me pummeling you. So now I am in the unenviable position of either confronting or protecting from this onslaught which I haven’t brought upon myself. So thank you! With friends like you who needs enemies.

Attack in Mohmand #141 Posted by masadi

“You can become whatever you want to become but don't associate your dirty name with mine”


Nahin tau nan sahi!

But don’t you think it is time for us to know who we really are. I admire the fact that you believe that you and folks like you are going to stop America and defeat them. This requires action on the ground with courage, steadfastness, determination and dedication. I am certain that you have all those qualities and not only that you also have the requisite anger and hostility that would move you from mere talk to action. Please make us proud. Stop living an existence of a ‘cyber chamoona’ and embrace your new identity as a 21st century sipah salaar. The call to lashkar has been made and all that is required of you is “Allah huma lubbaik”

Attack in Mohmand #130 Posted by masadi


“the people of Pakistan will hand their a$$es to them on the border as they encroach, a fate worse than what they see in Iraq awaits them...”

Oay Maan Sudkay!

You do that and forget Murzai I will become Masadai.

Attack in Mohmand #98 Posted by bulleya

“....isn't this exactly what OBL tells the Americans......you seem to have taken a page out of his book......”

And this is exactly why you should join OBL. Good luck and God Speed!

Attack in Mohmand It is so simple:


I don’t understand the fuss about America attacking Pakistani territory. Haven’t we established over the last several decades that these areas are not under the control of Pakistan and that we cannot either administer law and order nor can we prevent the flow of people in and out of this area into Afghanistan or into the settled areas of Pakistan. Yes Musharraf tried his best to spin and somehow convince the world that there was no infiltration coming from these territories but we all knew the reality. We knew then and the world knows now that the snake head, the pinnacle, ground zero of Jehadi enterprise lies in these bad lands.

Once coming under pressure Musharraf tried his best through cajoling, bribing and ultimately by force to have these tribal hordes mend their evil ways, lie low till the storm passes but nothing has worked. Instead of listening to reason or the stick they took the army on with devastating consequences. The army has been defeated, even the settled areas of NWFP are on the verge of falling to the Taliban. More then that all the cities in Pakistan including Islamabad are wary of retaliatory bombings any time an operation is conducted by the army in the tribal belt.

The new democratic government has decided to extract itself from this circumstance. Instead of taking responsibility for the actions of this unruly mob it has removed itself from the middle. If they wish to attack Afghanistan or Nato, go ahead but don’t cry to us when the Daisy Cutter lands on your butt. It is an unrealistic expectation that you can go out to Jihad but then can scurry back to safety at home. You have to understand that if you go and hit other people don’t be shocked when they come and destroy you. You don’t want to listen to us then go ahead and face the music. This is your fault and you have brought it upon yourself.

Once faced with clear and present danger let us not underestimate the pragmatism of these savages. Watch how quickly they shed themselves of Osama and embrace Obama.

Twenty Three Students Expelled From Punjab Medical College, Faisalabad Know thy enemy:

Has it ever happened that by appealing to a better sense of fairness and justice any minority or group that is perceived to be weak has gained their rights in Pakistan or for that matter in any other Muslim country? So why do you Ahmedis’ cower with pleas for protection which only convinces your adversaries of their own superiority and contempt for you. Do you think that the answer is in you migrating? They will claim victory and you will lose your homeland. You are sons of the soil and there is no retreat from home. The only thing that this barbaric horde recognizes is brute force and the certainty of immediate and massive retaliation.

Learn from the MQM or the Biharis how a small group survives in such a circumstance, but you can do a lot better then them. You guys are well educated, organized, with resources and even international support. Set up a militia. Train your whole cadre (men and women) in self defense with a young core of rapid reaction force. Let your enemies know that if they even look at you funny you will extract their eyes. But this message will not get through right away. So when they burn your mosque, burn 10 of theirs. When a mullah spouts out venom against you in his Friday sermon, confront him in a dark alley and beat the shit out of him. Believe me, he would be like Qaddafi, he will clamp up from then on. Identify those who threw out the luggage of your students and take them on individually through your defense force.

Soon the message will go out, that they can’t mess with you. I love the hierarchy of resistance which they are so adept at using because all the countries are ruled by despotic potentates. Resist with force, if that is not possible then by word, if that is not possible then in your own heart. You need to reduce them to resisting you only in their heart. But despair not! as you gain credibility you would even earn the right to preach your faith just like the Tableeghi Jamaat. Then you can eliminate the resistance even from their hearts.

Please De-stabilize the System “During French revolution the mobs killed anyone with soft hands.”

When you advocate de-stabilizing the system you are in fact endorsing something akin to the French Revolution. As you mention, the burning of the bandits is a clear indication that the masses are loosing their hesitation to administer street justice. This also is going to help remove most qualms they have about killing anybody.

But I would like to draw another parallel from the French Revolution which is perhaps more apropos. It was the women of the lower classes who attacked Versailles and seized the King and Queen. They were also identified with extreme violence in the revolution. Beware of the wrath of the women of Pakistan. When her hearth is cold and there is nothing to feed the children, let me tell you she will tear through this house of cards. Her anger and frustration is at a boiling point right now, as indicated by the incident in Multan where one tried to sell her 4 children and the numerous mother children suicides. The army, the maulvi, the feudal or the tribal will all be swept away because the men will have no choice but to follow the women.

Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State #18 Posted by akcheema

“I wish someone could elaborate here what Iqbal's message exactly is; what his 'philosophy - if it can be called that' is and whether it is really something new that hadn't been said before”

I am afraid that you are in the wrong place if you expect real scholarship and succinct answers to such queries. Most of us here do not have the time to go and research or have done scholarly work to do justice to questions that you are posing. Answers you get are either conjectures based upon anecdotal information or parroting considered opinions of others. People who are engaged in fundamental research cannot sit on Chowk as they are too busy peeling the onion. If you are interested in that, then form or join a study group, divide up responsibilities and come up with definitive conclusions that could be shared in article form on Chowk.

Still Looking! Honey! Just don’t wait too long. All these shenanigans are amusing but like the Japanese say, I paraphrase, “its no fun eating Christmas cake after Christmas”.

Pakistan: The War of Drones #518 Posted by Urstruly


Well we have come full circle. Let me illustrate – in 336 you say

“Hence my basic argument is that that Muslim sedition against the contemporary world order is a political issue at its core and should be treated as such; not addressing it as such, and making it what it is not at its core i.e. religious issue, shows the culpability and criminality of those who make it so.”

From there we move to 402 and you say

“The vision that Islam puts forth of a righteous individual is so juxtaposed on the image of a righteous society that it is impossible to separate the two. In other words, in Islam, politics is the religion and religion is the politics. A righteous individual thus becomes the building block of a righteous society.”

And in 518

“His life s is a unique example in the history of mankind.” (Holy Prophet)

To 536

Where you go back to taking an anthropological view, Darwinian process of Natural Selection and end it with the need for elections to establish representative government and the rule of law. In other words back to good old politics.

You can’t do that, because by doing it, you will just twist yourself up in knots, and before you know you will forget which end is up. This, I think is your fundamental problem you are just too much torn between a great intellect which pushes you towards rationality while your sense of loyalty grips you towards the Islamic vision. I think you need to have a deep conversation with yourself as to which side you are really on, because in the Islamic vision there is no room for doubt (yakeen muhkam).

Pakistan: The War of Drones #404 Posted by khurram

“So, how do you accept or reject a foundation myth?”

As they say, “the answer to life’s questions lie inside you. All you need is to do is look, listen and trust.”

Pakistan: The War of Drones #402 Posted by Urstruly

My God, I cannot believe that we are actually having a conversation rather then speaking from entrenched positions. You have no idea how much I appreciate this.

“The vision that Islam puts forth of a righteous individual is so juxtaposed on the image of a righteous society that it is impossible to separate the two”

This was precisely my quest. The question I had wrestled with for the longest time was exactly that. Was this vision of Islam both in terms of righteous individual and righteous society tenable and was it ever accomplished? As far as what I have studied, from the Medinat State to the Taliban state very righteous (but unbalanced) individuals have made valiant attempts, with unimpressive results. Never has this righteous state ever existed, not even close. The whole history is nothing more then tyrannical regimes where the populous was lucky to be spared the grip of an onerous state apparatus.

Had it been that the laws and values clearly laid out in the Good Book and had they addressed the issues of the ummah in an orderly manner then it could have worked. But that was not God’s will. Even the Khulfa e Rashidun’s rule is not called as Islamic Rule it is only referred to as rightly guided and nothing more. I would especially like you to consider the two fitnas that took place soon after Uthman’s assassination. All sides picked up the Quran and proclaimed themselves to be the defenders of the true faith and blamed their adversaries as those who adulterated the Quranic message, called them kafirs and whatever else. I could continue with the rant but what is the point.

So instead of listening to anybody who invokes Islam and the immense power of this “vision” we need to become highly skeptical to any such attempts. We have every right to be, because we have suffered a long history of usurpers and tyrants.