Twenty Three Students Expelled From Punjab Medical College, Faisalabad Re: # 605

The Emperor of Constantinople Paleologus

Twenty Three Students Expelled From Punjab Medical College, Faisalabad Re: # 604

Tahir,

on the same subject can I quote the following, by the great Emperor Constantine:

“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

Thank you and Good bye

In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful Re: # 608

tahmed32

Like many before you, you are using ad hominem to distract.

If you want to discuss the social problems of Europe then please write a column and we can.

My understanding is that the topic in hand is very specific and should be debated on its own merit.

If I pick a fault with you, by you picking a fault with me does not make your fault go away.

Thank you and Good day

In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful Re: # 605

tahmed32

thank you for your question. My viking ancestors were no different to anyone else's ancestors. I hold firmly the view that we all come from uncivilised pasts. Question remains that my compatriots,the non Islamic ones donot commit such crimes for the same motive.

I am more interested in what you may have to say to what I wrote.

Please don't use ad hominems to distract from the questions. Thank you.

In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful I read this debate from the sideline. In my reading of this and asking around in my country, Norway with a sizeable Muslim presence through migration, I came across this on a website. I would value your learned comments because we have seen it in Norway in Muslims more than any other groups. We do have a big Indian presence too but these practices are almost unheard of. Please keep in mind the following are not my personal views as I am here to learn and clarify.

Honor killing is neither in the Quran nor is it specified in any hadith. It is however the natural outcome of the Islamic ethos of misogyny.

Women in Islam are regarded as sources of shame. Muhammad said they are awrah which can be translated as object of shame.

"Ali reported the Prophet saying: 'Women have ten ('awrah). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten." [1]

What is awrah? The Encyclopedia of Islam defines 'awrah as pudendum, that is the external genitals, especially of the female. Pudendum derives from the Latin pudor which means sense of shame and modesty. So awrah signify an object of shame that needs to be covered. [2]

According to the following Hadith, women not only have ten 'awrah, but the woman herself is perceived as 'awrah:

"The woman is 'awrah. When she goes outside (the house), the devil welcomes her." [3]

If a woman loses her awrah by e.g. through rape, she becomes the object of shame for her family and the only way to remove that shame and restore the honor is to remove that defiled woman.

So you can say honor killing is cultural, but it is a culture that is deeply rooted in Islamic mindset and derives from it. It is practiced in all Islamic countries. The more religious is a country, the more is widespread the honor killing.

Women are asked to; “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display” Quran 33.33

A woman who transgresses these orders becomes the source of shame to her family. She will not be marriageable, she and her family become the object of gossip of everyone. The entire family can lose prestige. No one would give a daughter to the brothers of that girl in marriage and no one would marry her sisters. The family and even the extended family are maligned and become outcasts. This can only stop if the family cleanses that stain with blood. The woman thus defiled must be sacrificed even if she is a victim of rape.

But you don’t have to be raped to become an exposed awrah and bring shame to your family. If you disobey your father who has consented that you marry a certain person you dishonor him. If you escape from your home for any reason including abuse, you have brought shame to your family and you could be haunted by your own brothers or even your mother and killed. If you reject a suitor, his pride can be injured and he may feel the urge to throw acid at your face to avenge and restore his honor.

If you are a female you have to remember that you have brought shame and disgrace to your father and everyone else in your family the day you were born and you must cover this shame, You are awrah, a pudendum, something to be ashamed of, something to hide. When you go to your husband’s house, your parents can breathe a sigh of relief. But from there on you become the awrah of your husband. Only the grave will cover all the shame that you have brought to this world. But as long as you are alive, it is your religious duty to be modest and cover this shame and not disgrace your qayyuums (male guardians). Your male kin, (father, brothers, husband, sons and even uncles) are your qayyuums and you are their awrah. If you make a dazzling display of yourself, the honor of all these "honorable" male relatives is injured and all of them have a right to burry you to restore their honor.

Muslim men have very low self esteem but they compensate the smallness of their selfhood by inflating their ego. If you are a women related to them, they feel as if they own you. Whatever you do affects their gigantic ego. They are possessive and feel dishonored if you make a "dazzling display" of yourself. And of course if you are deflowered, this is an affront to their humongous pride. The damage is irreparable and the only way to restore that pride is to get rid of you.

Honor killing is theoretically against the law in all Islamic countries, but generally the sentences are light. Often they are a year of jail or only a few months. The judges are very "understanding" and sympathize with the killers who are also grieving for the loss of their loved one. Most likely the Judges would do the same in similar situations. Everyone agrees that this is a very unfortunate situation that has no other solution but taking the life of the poor girl. Often the brothers and the parents hug the lifeless cadaver of their victim and cry bitterly after stabbing her to death or strangulating her. They don't listen to her pleading and begging to spare her life, but sure they cry profusely for her after they kill her.

On the bright side, if you survive all this, manage to go to your husband’s house and bear him sons, you are set. From there on, and proportionate to the number of sons that you have brought to this world, you gain prestige and respect. Maybe by the time you are a middle aged woman, your sons are strong and your husband is a crippling old man, you can even bang on his head and insult him to the delight of your heart. But you must have your sons on your side to stand behind you at all times. This is a delicate political maneuver that you have to plan for from early on. Then you can be the despot and your aging hubby becomes your vassal. Alas only a few women can savor this sweet taste of success. But those who do it, do it very well.

Oh well, Allah's "Grace is (entirely) in His Hand, to bestow it on whomsoever He wills". Quran 57:29


Ref:

[1] Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 22, Hadith No. 858. See also Ihy'a

[2] Latin pudendum (literally) a thing to be ashamed of

[3] Ihy'a 'Uloum ed-Din by Ghazali, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, Beirut , Vol II, Kitab Adab al-Nikah, p. 65. Reported by Tirmizi as a true and good Ahadith.

The Importance of Natural Selection Re: # 501

Mr Zeemax,

I did not mean an insult by what I wrote. Not everything controvertial in theology is an insult to a religion.

If you need to check where I got the material from then please do go ahead:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/prayer.html

Thank you.

The Importance of Natural Selection Re: # 505

Mr Ecoboom,

I understand what you say entirely. The only problem with everything having a maker is that we cannot have one rule for us and another for our own maker as your argument does not get us out of this vicious circle. If God did not need a maker than that makes him "the ultimate aeroplane" to use your own analogy. (I quote: Would it be rational to believe that there's no designer behind airplanes because the laws of science can explain how airplanes operate and work?)


As I said before I do not follow any religion but I did not say I was an atheist. I am looking for answers the same as everyone else. Thank you for your time any way.

The Importance of Natural Selection Tahir, I am not German so please stop trying to communicate with me in that language!

The Importance of Natural Selection Thanks for the discussion guys. It was very enlightening. I noticed that some believers did not actually present any arguments whatsoever like Zeemax, Urstruly, Tahir etc. Also I noticed something by echoboom on the subject on chowk-connect.

Here is the results of the "Great Prayer Experiment". I would be interested in the four characters mentioned commenting on them please. I hope it is not too long this time.

“An amusing, if rather pathetic, case study in miracles is the Great Prayer Experiment: does praying for patients help them recover? Prayers are commonly offered for sick people, both privately and in formal places of worship. Darwin's cousin Francis Galton was the first to analyse scientifically whether praying for people is efficacious. He noted that every Sunday, in churches throughout Britain, entire congregations prayed publicly for the health of the royal family. Shouldn't they, therefore, be unusually fit, compared with the rest of us, who are prayed for only by our nearest and dearest? Galton looked into it, and found no statistical difference. His intention may, in any case, have been satirical, as also when he prayed over randomized plots of land to see if the plants would grow any faster (they didn't).
Valiantly shouldering aside all mockery, the team of researchers [from the Templeton Foundation] soldiered on, spending $2.4 million of Templeton money under the leadership of Dr Herbert Benson, a cardiologist at the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston. [...] Dr Benson and his team monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals, all of whom received coronary bypass surgery. [...] Prayers were delivered by the congregations of three churches, one in Minnesota, one in Massachusetts and one in Missouri. [...] The results, reported in the American Heart Journal of April 2006, were clear-cut.”

"The God Delusion" by Prof. Richard Dawkins, p61-63

The patients were divided into 3 (double-blind) groups:

Group 1: Received prayers, but were not told about them. This tests if prayers helped them recover more than normal patients. Their recovery was average.

Group 2: Received no prayers, and were not told so. This tested if there was something about the experiment that was affecting the results. Their recovery was also average.

Group 3: Received prayers and were told so. This tested the psychosomatic effects of knowing that one is being prayed for. This group "suffered significantly more complications".

What amazing results! Prof. Dawkins continues:

“Was God doing a bit of smiting, to show his disapproval of the whole barmy enterprise? It seems more probable that those patients who knew they were being prayed for suffered additional stress in consequence: [...] Dr Charles Bethea, one of the researchers, said, 'It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?' In today's litigious society [will they] put together a class action lawsuit against the Templeton Foundation?”
"The God Delusion" by Prof. Richard Dawkins

The Importance of Natural Selection Re: # 266

You are right that I am new and I follow debates of a religious nature on the web with occasional participation myself. I am more interested in other people's views though.

If anone is wondering about my own background, I am from Norway and was born in a Catholic family. I do not follow any religion myself.

The Importance of Natural Selection Re: # 264

That is fair enough. It has also been published as an ilog so everyone can write down their understanding of the individual questions asked.

I have already consulted the website you referred to and I am not satisfied with the replies.