This topic deserves a separate thread.Some other time,perhaps.

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Kaalchakra: I am no scholar... just a loud-thinker like yourself and an ok engineer by profession.

At the lowest level of totem pole, the street slang sits ala bazaari zabaan that is probably closely tied to its location, traveling on a train say from Multan to Lahore is one such example. Punjabi dialect changes in real-time within a matter of a couple of hours as people get off and on the train.

Urdu seems to have replaced local mythology in favor of an arab one. I will try to check a history book or something on this... later.

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lol, raw bhai, YOU are the real scholar here, into actually reading and researching things. Rahul, sadna (both from the north as well, I think) might know more, and hopefully will be able to help.

We can make some broad guesses. First, Iqbal etc stand/stood for grand visions and ideals. They show(ed) the direction and the path to the future. "High society" that others, lowlies like you and me, (are/were supposed) to emulate. This group and its language is likely to have nothing to do with the indigenous culture.

But as you go down, lower on the totempole, among people with more local ranges of interactions and influences, you might find relatively more "discourse with the local context." (hah, stealing that from neembu, although I don't know what she means by it). That "discourse with the local context" is likely to be the highest among those who could not read nor write and did not travel much beyond their villages. All that that stood for and stands for is timelag and education lag.

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But don't take any of that as anything more than loud thinking by a man who closes his eyes and spins stuff up. Hopefully, real experts should be able to help. There were, I beleive, SOME Muslim writers and poets who wrote and sang about Hindu gods as themselves, not as manifestations of Islam. It will be great to look at their language (I doubt they used urdu script, though, because script was meant to differentiate), their allusions, and see whether they cut any ice among the faithful themselves. Proabably not much, but it will be a great study. Whatever we can do to help because there haven't been too many people as genuinely curious as you.

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yaqeenan main aap kay khyalat se kutch had tuk zaroor waqif hoon, hazoor-e-wala. baja kaha aap ne jo bhi kaha.

But since, you are I believe from UP? so I thought you might have a hunch or a theory or aware of actual research on how these two languages evolved in parallel. You read Urdu poetry and it sounds like being composed in the outer regions of some mythical Persian Empire laced with "native" dialect, read Iqbal and you get the same feeling whenever he'd get stuck, he would throw in a massive persian sounding high falutin metaphor and there, yo uget the fix. hehe.

I am completely clueless about this so this Q might come off as a retarded one. I am not implying a conspiracy angle here but the whole thing is kind of curious (for me). Lucknow and Delhi were the centres and yet and yet ... All I could think of personally was my naani amman ji's proverbiage: "oonch Utangay" which is to say I think, lowly and downtrodden? Utanga happened to be a prince in MB. I don't know...

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Aaap tau humaaree khyaalat se waaqif hain.

Recently, somebody otherwise intelligent argued that sufism was about 'adopting' local culture. It was nothing of the sort, temporary nonsense and devious devices such as 'gathas' notwithstanding.

In fact,the strangest thing would have been for Urdu to adopt indigenous legends of the land (other than heer ranjah type of stuff that makes some Hindus so glad to be alive )

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Yes, local life is absolutely full of references to mythologies. One can't understand non-communist indigenous society without understanding those mythologies. Hence eliminating those references (along with eliminating local scripts - that's a key) is the first step in real cultural transformation.

Once that is done, then there is very little fear that people may one day understand each other. Ram Rajya (a very common reference) can be then painted as equivalent of sharia.

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Specifically, speaking of mahabharat, stories reside in the unconscious minds of illiterate villages (most of my own understanding is precisely and truely at that level. So you already impress me no end, man!). Stories of eklavya and his dedication, of bheem and his strength, arjun and single-visioned focus, etc etc, including endless references to krishna as a practical 'god'.

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err.. I have to drop the idea for now cos I have to finish this celine book journey to the end... for this friendly-bookclubby thing. I am definitely going to pick it up later... there is a version out there that condensed Katha Sarit Sagara into 1300 pages. I have to look it up. But here is my wishlist: Ramayana by rgachari then Katha Sarit Sagara and then that Vikram Chandra debut book... but not right now. damn!
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I have a general question if someone wanna take a shot at:
I am assuming hindi in north india must have metaphors, proverbs and stuff coming from ramayana/mb interspersed into the everyday lingo. ?

I was trying to recall but urdu seems squeaky clean from any and all the references to the legends of the land where it grew up.

I am just thinking... Hazrat Kaal kutch apnay khyaalat ka izhar karein, ala-Hazrat.

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Raw:Which version are you reading\intend to read?Is it online?

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I have to check it out before Sacred Games now. Thanks rahul.

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Raw: I have read it.I mentioned it once on UP before.Its the ultimate exposition of the technique of the story within a story within a story...Vikram Chandra has exploited this technique in Red Earth and Pouring Rain.

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Pandit raw, now you have already read infinitely more than I can ever hope to read. Only sadna ji, swarrier, and rahul can hope to communicate with you at these rarefied elevations that would, henceforth, be your natural habitat. Seriously, I am very happy for you - not a religious sense, but because you have acquired some real knowledge.

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If you want to try something a much much smaller scale, I recommend this:
Gods, demons and Others by R.K. Narayan

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what's the word on Somadev's Katha Sarit Sagara? Has anyone read it, swarrier, kaal, sadna? It's like 3400 pages long collection of shlokas. according to this.

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swarrier
Hopefully you feel good now that you had to chant verses so at least know them now?

I didn't know those were Arjuna's names. Yeah I knew Hanuman was on Arjuna's flag, though I don't remember the story of how he got there

I've read or heard this amusing tidbit about how Hanuman said this battle is nothing like the one we fought with Ravana so he fell asleep watching and slept through the entire Mahabharata war. And he only woke up once in the middle to watch one of the fierce duels I forget which one. I like the deference the authors showed to the Ramayana


Raw_Dust
Nice

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Sadna
You know they are Arjuna's names.
It is a pity that very few Hindus will name their daughter after Draupadi.
I remembered the names because of the prayers we had to chant at dusk when we were kids. There was another bit for Hanuman that I have forgotten.
You of course know that Hanuman is on Arjuna's flag in the Battle.

Raw
Yeah surprised you didn't it. I didn't agree with the whole idea considering the person who he used for Duryodhana. There was a difference in the time period too. I did like Draupadi's representation though.

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swarrier: by the way, I did find a copy of Great Indian Novel and I was flipping through it just to check who did Mr. Writer make it out to be Karna. Oh, well... I would have made the guy a surrogate of Sakuni. Karna is a much much higher compliment for small-time thugs..

On MB: I'll read P. Lal version eventually... He translated it keeping the verses intact from whatever bits I'd seen.

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thanks sadna.

...that got me thinking: krishna reflecting arjuna reflecting karna reflecting Sun-god and so on... and moving in cycles. reminded me of a terence malick line in thin red line. (he is shooting a film in india, tree of life or something)

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" ;Private Edward P. Train: [voice over] Where is it that we were together? Who were you that I lived with? The brother. The friend. Darkness, light. Strife and love. Are they the workings of one mind? The features of the same face? Oh, my soul. Let me be in you now. Look out through my eyes. Look out at the things you made. All things shining. "

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