heya ranjee

this jangs is very uppity . He thinks he is the last word on true atheists and false atheists (" /> i think its the karachi in him

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i dont know about puja..but i love to go to temple and do people-watching .. newly-married bahus, sinners holding their ears and doing tauba..i with there is a nice balcony with a bar

and their are certain pujas i do with passion...shhodopchar (laddu will unnerstand..that means with 16 rituals)

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commie are commies first and as a part of being commies are forced into atheist
we are talking about true converts...not born-into or forced atheists

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Hi Cliffy.....

Dont listen to chaltoo and jangs.....i am sure in their offline world, both are committed hinjew/sikh......doing puja, going to temples and all that crap......later they feel guilty and come on chowk to clear their conscience.....

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jangs has never heard of communists

vaise jangs is part of my chowk identity for some reason

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are good aeitheists gooder than good religious?
are bad aeithist badder than bad religionist?

atheist are essential individualists, so when they are bad, they are less likely to use, control and influence others using religion (which IMO flourishes in a symbiotic manner with help of those who successfully use religion for imperialism, control etc).

so atheist are unable to do too much damage.

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People can have whatever over arching identity they choose for themselves, if its not your bag you get to choose that for yourself not anyone else.

Do you think most of the worlds greatest inventions and contributions came from atheists? religion doesnt make people stupid, thats not born out by history. And what makes you think the great minds in history didnt define themselves strongly as belonging to some religion, even as a primary identity?

Atheists are all bigots

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Clifton, religion a an attribute among others that defines a person is fine because 99% of people didn't choose it..they were born into it. But as an overarching basis of their identity??? That is stupid. I can respect a doctor, an acquired knowlwdge...I can't respect religion....because it is the antithesis.

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Self righteousness is just another form of comedy.

Vaise most pakistani cites are quite used to confident women, all she'll have to watch out for is eve teasing/harassment etc.

I asked because i know loads of people who are atheist/agnostic themselves but want their kids to have a religious identity to start out with.

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Clifton, "if you could chose ....what collective identity would she have? english-paki nondenominational?"

I don't have time for parochialism in any sense of the word. I did spend many years in Pakistan and couldn't understand this 'tussle' with India.

Also there is a lot of self-riteousness that I hated with a passion. There is a lot of that here too.

Same is true for religion; I have the religion of a flea! same with my wife.

I'd like her to be confident in what she chooses; that also includes acceptance by others. e.g., if she goes to Pakistan, I want her to be treated like a human being and not 'an open target' for being a woman with confidence.

Unfortunately, I can't put my hand on heart and say that won't happen! and I don't like not having some control over this I suppose.

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chaltoo what makes you think all atheists are good people and all believers are bad? yaar its just not like that.

And hence whether you believe or not, its no victory for people to turn atheist in large numbers....thats no guarantee the world will be a better place , have ya forgotten the commies?

Im all for ending "religion" based crimes and most sane people are but thats a diff. story.

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Akcheema, I applaud you. The nicest, most genuinely good hearted, moralistically superb person I know is a staunch athiest. He didnkt get his values from scripture. He was born that way. Do unto others is genetic not learned through study of religious doctrine.

The other day I caught my son saying " oh my god...I mean...oh my goodness" I was flush with pride. If a 5 year old can understand it, I am sure adults can and they are in increasing numbers.

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So as a collective she is an english-pakistan and as an individual a happy laid back individual.

sorry for being a pest ....but i asked out of curiosity ....if you could chose ....what collective identity would she have? english-paki nondenominational? just curious.

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Clifton, "cheema if you could decide what would be her primary identity?"

I would like her to be a good and happy human being first who is confortable and confident with herself. I like to think she gets that 'vibe' from both her parents.

The rest would be upto her I suppose.

When asked directly, she does refer to herself as English and Pakistani both; the unfortunate truth is that the Pakistani side (at large) is more likely to disown her than the English side...
...both of us like singing along to "Waltzing Matilda.." too!

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similarly there is a reason why manto sees pakistan the way he does, - its because he is manto.

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chaltoo lemme share some farsi sufi qawali stuff:

ba hur su deeda-e dildar deedum
jamal khud jamal e yaar deedum

as in i saw the beloved (God)'s beauty everywhere, even in myself.

we are always the primary vessels of our own understanding. Religion, patriotism, alchohol etc does not create something that isnt already there. So religion in my mind is an individual understanding/expression of a collective.

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